“Blacks only voted for Obama because he was a black man”! Or better yet “Black Christians voted against their values and voted for Obama just because he was black”!
If I hear that again I am going to scream, or throw my radio out of the car, or do something against my common sense! Listen to me very carefully. Especially if you are a Christian and your skin color is white. Look at the picture below.
1. I would hope that after years of being played as the buffoon, or caricaturized as humans with great athletic ability and no brains (remember science said that blacks have the smallest brains amongst all ethnicities) that humans with dark skin could get more respect than that.
2. As many blacks voted for Obama because he was black as whites voted for Bush and McCain because they are white.
3. Regardless of what you think of us dumb blacks we really do know the issues that were facing our nation just as much as whites know the issues facing this nation.
4. We are no less voting against convictions if we think the poor should be fed, properly educated (since you are taxing me for it), have health care and this War is evil and dumb. Some believe that this is equal to Abortion and Gay marriage. Not to mention we aren’t too fond of government backed torture of humans beings who are “innocent until proven guilty” and even if they are guilty that seems to be “cruel and unusual punishment” (that is still U.S law right?).
5. Finally please respect our opinions as we respect yours. White American thought is not the standard of truth. Others have opinions that differ. Just because blacks voted for a president you don’t like doesn’t make us dumb and just voting for a race. Blacks have vote Democratic historically over the past 28 years that I have been alive and I believe sine FDR really. 90% plus voted for Clinton in both elections. 90% of black voters voted for both Gore and Kerry. The problem is most blacks didn’t register because they believe that either candidate cared about their issues that they were just a minority to be courted but people didn’t care. Obama seemed to be a person who cared while Bush has ignored the black voters not even entertaining any invitations to come speak of his policies. At least McCain made an attempt but the problem is he was casted in the same light don’t forget this quote “I voted with Bush 90% of the time”. Wrong answer for black folks.
Before you open your mouth about why blacks voted. Ask them! Don’t stereotype and don’t contribute to say gross misrepresentation that has circled Conservative Evangelical Programs. This is disheartening and when I hear it I have no desire to hold in further conversations with you. A bridge that is fragile is already torn down. We love America too and we want to see her prosper and our kids flourish and become productive citizens. I promise we love Jesus just as much as you do. Don’t do us blacks folks like that, we have climbed enough hurdles and have sought your equality for too long for you to push us back down and compartmentalize us as just a bunch of dummies who don’t know any better!
I promise this is the last post on politics!
Lionel,
You are a precious brother, and you and yours are welcome in my home any time. I would be blessed to have you sit at my table and share my home.
Your words bring tears to my eyes as I think of the great friendships I had during the years after the second world war and on into my teen years.
I grew up playing with indigenous Australians, as well as first generation Greeks, Italians, Syrians, etc. I had quite a few friends who were original Australians. They were my mates!
Neither they nor I had any thoughts about ethnicity or skin color, and I still remember the shock of, quite suddenly being cut off from my dear friends, because some fellows came from USA, with fists raised in the air, telling the families of my friends to avoid contact with us.
I will never forget the first date I had with my wife some 48 years ago. I took her to a small country picture theatre to watch a movie called “Onion Head”, and even as I write, my eyes fill with tears as I remember that my black neighbours had to sit in a different section to the so-called whites.
When those who call themselves Christian behave in these abominable ways, I want to disassociate myself from them. Little do they know how utterly dark are their hearts!
What utter ignorant stupidity for people to act in a way that denies that their sovereign Creator gave them the color of their skin!
When will we ever learn?
While I’m sure that there are many (black & white) who voted for President Obama simply becuz of the color of his skin, there is probably an equal number that did not vote for him becuz of the color of his skin.
If I said to a Caucasian, “You didn’t vote for President Obama simply becuz he was black” it would be an offense. To say I only voted for President Obama becuz of the color of our skin is an offense! I was HIGHLY skeptical of President Obama BECUZ he is black!
If you look at those black individuals throughout American history who have been successful in being “The First Black” at breaking a barrier or accomplishment. There was an enormous amount of pressure thrust upon them, becuz their successful or failure would forever become the landmark or measuring stick.
I have come through the racially turbulent sixties and there is too much at stake to simply vote a person to the highest executive position in American simply becuz they look like me. And there are MILLIONS of African Americans who feel the same way becuz failure at that level especially is not an option!
I have read so much across the net and the polarization this election has created is astounding. Mostly becuz much of what is being said is in ignorance! Some of it I understand becuz for many whites in this country, there is little contact with blacks. And when the media doesn’t always show us at our best, it simply adds to the stigmas.
Blacks love America just as much as whites! But America also has had a history of exclusion and for the first time, there are many who felt like President Obama wasn’t just saying “I’ll fight for you” just as a means to win their vote! Which has been a Democratic ploy for many an election.
I certainly don’t agree with everything he stands for, but I believe he genuinely desires to change the way politics have been run in Washington. He is not the moral leader that the Conservative Right desire, but we have had their choice for 8 years! And while I have had many Believers tell me they can’t vote for a baby killer, the same don’t seem to blink an eye at the THOUSANDS of innocents who have been murdered in Iraq becuz Mr. Moral declared them our enemy!
My hope does not rest in America or in Obama. God’s will be done is my prayer.
Selah!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Aussie J,
Thank you brother and I do understand. The other issue are blacks who refuse to fellowship and misrepresent whites also so this ain’t it either. I really don’t expect much from those outside the church but for some odd reason it has been many who don’t know the Lord Jesus that has stood by the sides of the marginalized fighting for their rights. Though there were 100’s of thousands of our white brothers who either supported directly or indirectly the equal rights of all human beings. I know many like Dave Black, you, Alan, Steve Owen, Piper who can carel less about my skin color. I have seen many who I thought who didn’t care but as soon as this election came around the lyrics to the song they were singing changed. Thank you sir again for your kind words.
DJ,
I was just as skeptical! You are correct brother and you only need to sit at the feet of my granny who is 83 years old who was born and raised in the delta of the Mississippi to hear both the exuberant excitement and sigh of relief that says “yes blacks are human too”. Much of the church has been silent on issues of social justice they say “it isn’t our job to fight for social justice” but in the same breath “it is our job to elect a moral president” sounds hypocritical to me.
Lionel-
It’s more than a little insulting isn’t it?
Are you finding mainly white people using the excuse that people only voted for Obama out of ignorance and because he is black?
The fact is Obama ran an amazing campaign, he presented a consistent positive message, he was organized, he mobilized people and he did not make any large missteps.
Obama won because more people black, white, hispanic. asian, young and old, wealthy and poor wanted him to be president.
Period.
He won fair and square.
96% of the VOTING black population voted for Obama. That was about 12 million blacks. About 46 MILLION WHITES VOTED FOR OBAMA, so they were the majority.
We only make up a small percentage of the total voting population (we as in does who are considered black by ethnicity)
This post brought tears to my eyes B and R; thanks for being
candid and truthful…
Lionnel, I’m really sick of hearing this as well. What is even more bothersome, is that he isn’t only black, he’s half white too. Does everyone seem to forget that?
Again I think this goes back to one of our original conversations/posts, specifically with regards to race. Who cares how many people were white or black voted democratic of republican, why are we even talking this way about ourselves, segregating ourselves based on the colors of our skins, even if to try and make a point? It’s not beneficial and it’s very much like the world.
Peace to you, Heather
what does it even matter why people voted for barack, it won’t change the outcome. it is what it is. barack hussein obama is our nation’s 44th president whether people like it or not.
i’ve heard so much bitterness spewed against this man and his butt hasn’t even warmed the executive chair of the oval office yet. he’s been excoriated, vilified, demonized and even called the anti-Christ! smh
and why, because he’s pro-abortion? sure. the same people who are crying that God hates the shedding of innocent blood somehow overlook the Scriptures before that one that say He hates a lying tongue, and a proud look. without even taking a survey, i’m sure more lies have been told and proud looks have sat smugly across our faces (including believers) than abortions performed.
they’re all detestable in the sight of our Holy God but somehow abortion tops the list with them. to hear all of the hypocritical, SELF-righteous, indignant posturing coming forth from some Christians mouths is sickening.(btw, why wasn’t roe-v-wade overturned during bush’s 2 terms?)
in some chat-rooms on pal-talk, i heard insensitive and ignorant statements like: true Christians wouldn’t vote for obama, and only deceived Christians voted for obama. smh wow. some people are a trip.
What I think that what those who level this charge against Blacks fail to realize is that this election was as much about President Bush as it was about Obama and McCain.
President Bush, whether fairly or unfairly, is being blamed for, not only our reputation in the world, but also our domestic problems. John McCain, whether fairly or unfairly, was being labeled George Bush III. And Barack Obama, whether fairly or unfairly, was seen as the anti-Bush.
In America, an individuals’ vote does not need to be justified to anyone.
Nice posts mrs. mav and BLD
Lionel, clearly any implication of the kind you shared in your post are wrong. It just goes to show that bigotry exists among people of every color, and that is something only Jesus can heal.
You did say to ask questions though, so I do have two.
First,
Here was my take on the race issue
http://www.morethancake.org/2008/11/prayer-for-my-president-barack-obama.html
Your thoughts?
Second,
I have friends, white and black, who did take race into consideration when voting. I don’t think they compromised any of their own values or did so because they were dumb. And while race was a factor, it was not fear or hatred that motivated them. They did, however, feel that voting an otherwise qualified black man into office could be a positive thing for the cultural/social advancement of our nation. I have to admit that part of me finds their arguments persuasive. Do you think people who voted with this rational are right?
Hey Lionel – While I completely echo your frustration at all the endless analyzing and punditry about the next president being black, and the matter of how that factored into why various people voted for him, it also seems like your frustrations are maybe taking over your spirit to a degree, and robbing you of the peace that comes from Christ…. Just as you don’t want news anchors or whoever else to lump all black people into one ignorant camp, don’t fall into the trap of lumping all white people together in the same way! Your post as a whole was more or less aimed at white people, as if everyone who’s white has the same narrow, one-dimensional view of why non-white people vote the way they do as the relatively few whites who you’ve been hearing and reading… Dude, if you’re getting this riled up by it all (and I can certainly understand why you are…) then perhaps you need to unplug a bit, and just turn off the noise of the kingdom of men… I know I’ve had to do that many times, otherwise it just all but consumes you. I think all of us who live in this day and age, with the abundance of technological streams of information, need to learn to exercise self-discipline when it comes to the media. Sooner or later, it drowns out the truth that our lives are built upon, and sucks us into earthly divisions…. Remember, those of us who’ve been made new in Christ, are of a new nation all together..!!!
Daniel
Righter,
Me also. :o(
Heather and Daniel,
I want you to know that I am not lumping “all whites” nor all “conservatives” I am writing this to defend the fact that many blacks (although it was the majority white vote that elected Obama) understand the issues. What I have heard on “conservative” Christian radio is that blacks have putned their faith and elected a liberal simply because of his skin. That is a gross misrepresentation.
Maverick,
I think much of that is what I am referring to. McCain is no closer to God than Obama in my opinion.
Joe,
I believe that to take race into consideration to qualify or disqualify a president isn’t wise. I don’t care how black McCain was or wasn’t nor Obama. I voted on clear issues, many of the things I struggled with (still not saying which way I voted) but at the end of the day I voted because of what my ancestors endured but I didn’t vote for a race and many of my loved ones who did vote for Obama have been straight ticket democrats all their lives. If Hiliary was there she would have received just as many black votes as Obama. I think she would have won by a higher margin actucally. As a matter of fact Tavis Smiley wanted Clinton over Obama he has been a voice in the Black Community for years.
Lionel I agree 100% with this post. I don’t understand why any one would question our voting and support for Obama. He ran an awesome campaign which during that time he really showed who he was. For what reason would we have for not voting for him?
I am indeed sorry and grieved that those who would call themselves manking would resort to such shameful things … Ann says it well, it was and is because of who he is that many voted voted for him.
Can we change these times of colour discrimination to colour blindness – let us all join hands, here ….
YES WE CAN!!!!
Thanks for your input lionel. I really agree, but there is just more I need to think about…
Brother, i am sorry you are so angry.
Abundant Blessings
Frankie G
Bikers for Christ
Ann,
I agree. I think it was his personal connection (fake or not) that made him win. He seemed touchable, trasparent but confident, committed but inquisitive, strong but with a humility that made him seem more than a politician. Though I believe he is very much the politician. His change on certain things didn’t seem like political manuervar but a reforming menatality.
Mark,
WE will. As the Gospel becomes the center of our lives and not political alignment. As Christians begin to challenge the status quo of what is acceptable in the church I believe things will change. And when the church wants to do it and can care less of the media attention we get then I believe the Spirit will endorse it.
Joe,
Understood brother. I do believe Obama being elected will ignite social change. He is the perfect candidate, a 50/50 mix of the the races with the thickest tension in the last 400 years. As we stop looking a interracial couples as odd, and as we begin to not only move into neighborhoods but also build friendship and when the Church gets off of our duff social change will come.
Spankie,
I ain’t angry, I am frustrated and saddened that such accusations are spewed.
First of all, Lionel, let me say that this is NOT garbage (inside joke). I totally concur that it would be pretty stupid for any person to say that they know why black people voted for Obama when the fact is they do not and cannot. The fact is people have different opinions of the man and some side with him on issues while others disagree with him. The GREAT thing is that in this country we can vote and have a say. There are countries where you can’t do that. Since I believe that God is completely in control as I’m sure you do, Obama is not in office because black people voted for him but because God put him there.
There are people who are alive today who at one point couldn’t vote, had to drink out of certain water fountains and go to certain bathrooms, and had to sit on the back of buses who have been able to see someone from their own culture elected to president. Even though there are some issues I disagree with the man on, I think his being elected represents something positive for this country and all Americans.
Hey Lionel,
Thanks for the post. I like your blog a lot, and pretty consistently read a number of your posts (though I think I’ve only commented once or twice before). Could I just throw a word of caution out there from one brother in Christ to another? I appreciate your openness and willingness to discuss such a sensitive issue, however I think your post is a little over the top in places. I’m sorry that somebody has offended you on this topic, but I think some people might be slightly offended by some of your language. For example your second point certainly has merit (and to some extent is true). some people I’m sure voted negatively out of race (i.e. I won’t elect Obama because he is black) but what benefit is it, when writing a post defending the insinuation that you voted for someone because of race, to then turn around and accuse someone else of voting because of race. Again, I’m not saying that it isn’t true, just not necessary or beneficial to bring up.
Beyond that, I’m a little uncomfortable with how much it seems that you are lumping together white people and conservative Christians with those who think such negative things about black people. Words like “Regardless of what you think of us dumb blacks” with the ‘you’ as far as I can tell referring back to “Especially if you are a Christian and your skin color is white” is just not an element that’s going to disarm but rather inflame. I doubt it was your intent to inflame, but I’m afraid that’s how it came across to me and possibly to other white Christians.
As far your fifth point, I do understand and agree with your assessment of voting trends between the black community and the democratic party. I certainly don’t think that the percentages are that different this time around, however you have to admit there is something a little different about this election because of Obama’s race. I certainly don’t think it caused anyone to forget their values and become zombies because they saw someone that looked like them (and I’m sorry that you’ve heard that claimed by some who claim Christ). However I have noticed a stark difference in attitude and excitement for this election. I live in a majority black population (just outside Washington DC) and I notice that the guys I work with for example are wearing Obama T-shirts and buttons and other gear and are talking to me in an excited manner that has never been present in political discussion before. And quite frankly some have admitted to me that their excitement level (not their decision to vote) is tied to the fact that Obama is black.
Again, I don’t think they voted for him solely on the basis, but that had at least an influence on them according to their own words. And is that so wrong? why shouldn’t my friends be able to take a sense of pride in knowing that they helped elect the first black president in the history of this country? It almost feels like your overreacting against the negative stereotype you’ve heard to make it sound like race was a complete non-factor in this election. Was it THE main reason for Obama’s victory or even an important reason. Absolutely not, this was simply a democratic year. people have been saying that since before the first primaries and they were right. There were probably a number of democrats that would have beat any republican this year. And beyond that, Obama is a very good politician whether you agree with him or not on issues. However just because something isn’t the main reason, doesn’t mean it’s not a reason at all.
As far as Christians go, similar to the work situation, I’ve had one passionately pro-life conservative (reformed 🙂 Christian friend tell me just today that race was a factor (again not the only reason, but a factor) in their decision. This person very openly admitted that normally they vote for a pro-life candidate, but thought that other factors including the economy, heath care, and (their words not mine) race trumped that concern. One pastor even publicly admitted his own struggle with Obama’s race and its influence on his vote on JT’s blog this week. Nobody was putting words in his mouth, but he openly admitted to weighing his pro-life conscience with his race. It wasn’t his sole consideration in voting, but according to him it played a part.
I say all this to say, I think you might have overreacted to the negative stereotypes you heard. Maybe race played absolutely no part in your decision one way or another, but it did in the lives of some of my friends and co-workers. Maybe the people you listened to heard some of same things i heard from people they know and either internalized it wrong, drew the wrong conclusions, or just communicated it poorly in a public format (or maybe they’re just ignorant and have negative stereotypes of black people). All I know is that from my perspective this post could have been written in a way that would facilitate dialogue a little better between black and white Christians.
Maybe in the future when you hear offensive things like this on the radio or read about it on a blog you could first post the comments on your blog and get feedback on it. If it still seems offensive then name names and lets confront (lovingly of course 🙂 these so-called Christians who are saying offensive things. Maybe they don’t even realize they’re being offensive. Maybe they are truly ignorant about certain things. But if they sin with their mouth and in response you just simply throw out broad categories of “white people” and “conservative Christians” on your blog, then no one is really profiting anything.
Sorry for the length of my comment. Thanks again for all your work on this blog. Let me know what you think!
Billy W,
I hear you bro, but let me show you the preface of this whole converstation:
“Blacks only voted for Obama because he was a black man”! Or better yet “Black Christians voted against their values and voted for Obama just because he was black”!
If I hear that again I am going to scream, or throw my radio out of the car, or do something against my common sense! Listen to me very carefully. Especially if you are a Christian and your skin color is white. Look at the picture below.
If you don’t believe this, then that is fine. I will tell you I have talked with many people read many blogs and listened to many radio programs. The consensus is that blacks voted for Obama because of his skin color. I have never heard this prefaced with “some blacks”. I used the same language to discredit. I do apologize if you are offended or if you feel lumped. I did try to preface with the two paragraphs above though. I am not saying some didn’t vote for him because of his color but I believe those to be in the minority. If Clinton was there she would have gotten just as high of a percentage.
The excitement may did change. But excitement and voting history are different. 95%+ of the black vote would have went to Clinton the same as it went to Obama. Thats all I am trying to convey.
Thanks for the response Lionel. let me just clarify that I’m not trying to deny what you’ve heard or read. I haven’t heard much myself but that’s probably because I don’t listen to many christian broadcasts or read too many politically charged blogs. I don’t disagree with you on the fact that people are saying some of the ignorant things you’ve mentioned. and I am sorry that they’ve said things like that which obviously you and others found offensive. Hopefully someone (maybe you 🙂 can confront those who claim to be Christians and are saying these things so they can understand where they’re wrong.
As far as the voting goes, I agree with you that anyone who voted primarily on the basis of race is in the minority and that if another democrat had run they would have also gotten 95% of the black vote. I’m not trying to dispute that (because frankly all the evidence is in your favor on that statement so I couldn’t even if I tried :). I guess I’m just trying to add a caveat because it feels almost like you were trying to say that race had no factor at all in the election. My caveat is simply that while race was not a determining factor for many people it was one factor among a number of others that many people evaluated and considered (at least many of the people I know personally and have read/listened to in the last few days.)
There was a good article in the washington post this morning (it might be online) saying basically the same thing I’m trying to say. The author looks at his family, friends, and neighbors reaction to the win and says that while there’s no doubt Obama won on the issues and his own political skill, his race was present in the minds of many of the black voters he knew.
Hope that clarifies my point a little. thanks again for the response!
Politik kills thats all I got to say. People can go back and forth on this issue, you just hope people voted with their convictions and issues. I agree too, even if it was Hilary Clinton running for the presidency she would still get the black vote. Either way its history in the making. We ought to pray for guy, government is always better than anarchy. I used to get all worked up in political stuff thats why I’m glad its over. I just hope under Obama the government is smaller and wish he change his stance on abortion. Either way please Jesus come.
The 2012 Resistance Movement… kinda sums it all up!
http://atlah.org/lists/?p=subscribe&id=15%3C
Lionel, if you feel this link is inappropriate or feeds into the rhetoric you can delete.
I Ain’t Nobody!
Oh…my…goodness! Is that real? or a joke?
I’m packing up and moving to ATLAH!
AH…I get it….AH…..
*Sighs*…unfortunately…it’s real!
I Ain’t Nobody!
I just listened to Mr. Manning and all I can say is that I will “resist” the temptation to question his eternal state!
james manning has been tripping for a long time, and this is nothing new. the whole calling harlem, atlah “holy ground” is silly, and beside his congregation no one i know who lives here in nyc calls harlem such. i stopped listening after 20 minutes because i couldn’t stand to hear any more of his ramblings.
the thing that is most telling is that he refuses to acknowledge that he was mistaken in “hearing the voice of Jesus”. he insists that he is STILL a prophet and it was “Jesus” who let his (manning’s) words fall to the ground. smh
only Jesus can regulate this man’s mind and heal him and i hope He does for manning’s sake. as far as him being a prophet, deuteronomy says it best~
18:22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
I am white and gay. I voted for Obama for his morality that I percieved as being the best of the candidates. However, I am hurt and feel differently to have discovered that 69 percent of the black california voters voted in favor of prop 8 banning gay marriage in california. Their percentages were much, I mean much higher than any of the other california human ethnicities. I don’t like to see numbers like that. It is disturbing and distrustful especially when I voted from the heart and not for just myself. What do you all think of that?
Just Me,
I wonder why you are especially hurt by the “black” vote? I suspect that it is because you believe that Blacks being discriminated against themselves, would have given them a kinship with gays. But I myself find it unfortunate that so many gays believe that discrimination against them is the same as discrimination against blacks. It is not.
By proper definition, highlighting a difference between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples is a DISTINCTION (concerning the behavior of individuals) rather than a DISCRIMINATION (concerning individuals themselves).
When you say you are white, you are not describing any specific actions or behaviors in which you engage. But when you say you are gay, you ARE describing a specific action and behavior in which you engage.
It is certainly justifiable for others to disagree with your behavior. No one should be (or could be, really) forced to respect or accept your behaviors. Because they have quantifiable consequences, behaviors are such that they can be judged as right or wrong. You can’t do that with skin color. There is no justifiable reason to judge someone’s skin color as right or wrong.
Also, you can argue that your behavior is not wrong but you can’t argue that others should be forced to agree. This is a democracy and in a democracy, the majority gets to decide which behaviors are acceptable and which are not.
But the main argument against gay marriage is not religious, racial or bigoted. It is, or should be, how marriage is defined. If marriage has no fixed definition, then how do we deny other forms of sexual relationships from declaring themselves to be eligible or possessing of a right to marry?
What about polygamist? Incest? Beastiality? These are only obsurd suggestions if marriage has a fixed defintion. If not, then I sorry but anything goes.
Just Me, it’s okay for you to be disappointed with the outcome of the proposition. But there’s no logical reason to have expected a different response from people because they are Black.
By the way Just Me,
In California, under Family Code 2975, same-sex couples in “domestic partnerships” have all the same “rights, protections, and benefits” as heterosexual married couples.
I am thrilled every time I stumble upon a reformed website, especially one by men of color. It grieves me that there are so few christians that are open to reformed theology today and as Sherard Burns has commented, so few colored people are willing to embrace the theology of white slave owners (ie., Jonathan Edwards). All that to say, I am pleased to find some brothers wrestling with godly issues. So, my comment to this emphatic blog is because this post is dramatically inconsistent with the rest of your purpose, primarily to glorify God.
It is very rare for political issues to be heard from a refreshingly biblical perspective rather than clouded by worldiness and fleshly emotions. I appreciate Albert Mohler for his God honoring blogs. Fortunately for us, God’s word truly is the “lamp unto our path”. The question we MUST engage ourselves with, is His word guiding our thoughts and emotions. All of us have passionate views about racism and we MUST, as Christ bearers, not succumb to worldliness, for if we cannot breakdown the barriers, the world has no hope.
As christians, we CANNOT allow race to be a factor in our support for a political candidate or anything we support for that matter. Racism whether negative or positive is sin and devisive. So, Barak Obama, as well as any white, black, hispanic, chinese, etc., presidential candidate, MUST be judged according to his philosophy and stance on critical issues and how biblical he is in the political arena.
It is clearly evident that he is very unbiblical when it comes to the sanctity of life, and homosexuality. But you mentioned several other areas with which you countered the issues of life and sexuality. Feeding and educating the poor, health care, etc. as though to express that Barak Obama had the biblical position on these issues. It escapes me why so many in the church believe that it is the governments responsibility to care for and nurture the poor. This is first and foremost the responsibility of the individual. The apostle writes that if a man does not work, let him not eat, and again he writes if a man does not care for his family, he is worse than an infidel. Secondly, the church is to be merciful and gracious to the poor, the widow, the orphan, the sick, etc. Because of the failure of the church, do we then turn over the freedom to succeed and fail to the government. Healthcare is NOT a right, as Barak expressed in one of the debates, it’s an individual’s responsibility, if the individual cannot care for himself, then then his family should step in first and then the church. Eating is not a right, a roof over your head is not a right, these are all reponsibilities and this country was established with this biblical principle in place. Obama wants the government to redistribute wealth (take one man’s riches and give them to another) and this I would submit to you is exactly what Samuel warned Isreal with when they rejected God and wanted a King. They wanted a King to rule over them and protect them rather than living responsibly under God. And so we have a man that is supported in droves by individuals who, rather than live responsibly under God, want the government to rule over them and take care of them. Time and time again, I heard people saying things like, “what have the Republicans ever done for ME?’, or “I’ll vote for Obama because of what he’ll do for ME.” This is a terribly ungodly attitude promoted by the social philosophy of Barak Obama. History demands that this mindset is so at odds with christianity that countries that have gone this way have without exception, erased God form their society, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, etc. Socialism is NOT biblical!
What about family? The very institution that God Himself instituted. Obama wants to teach your children in kindergarten about homosexuality? Does this line up with the education that you want to give the poor? Dear brother, what does he bring to our country that is Christ-honoring? Regardless of race, what has he promised to do that will enhance the cause of Christ in our country? More government control has always been a dangerous thing for the church and what kind of judges will Obama appoint that will help the cause of the church or our christian families that homeschool (think of the California courts trying to outlaw homeschooling so the state can indoctrinate the children)?
I don’t particularly find that race is too important in this past presidential race but what is important is that a lot of Christians need to search their own heart and give answer for the reasons they voted for a predominantly unbiblical leader.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
Foreign policy is debatable but overall, how can we as christians justif
Bro/Sis. AJ,
I have serious questions that I think you have failed to ask yourself.
1. I am to understand that you don’t believe Albert Mohler has any “fleshy emotions” when it comes to any of his views?
2. Why does it matter how “biblical” a political leader is since we are not electing a God, Christ, Savior, or spiritual leader of any sort? Our King is on His throne and that’s unchanging. He said that His kingdom was NOT of this world. Do you disagree with Him?
3. Is John McCain, Bush or any other pro-war politician any more “biblical” when they don’t mind bombing villages where women (some who are pregnant with the unborn) and children will be killed? Does calling them “casualties of war” make it less sinful?
4. As far as “educating” the poor, are you speaking of education at the college level? Everything before that is a matter of law so in that case it IS the governments responsibility to educate.
5. You alluded to 2 Thessalonians 3:10 but I’m not sure you’ve thought out your application of this verse. Let’s say you have a brother in your church who was just laid off by DHL (9,500 positions in the last two days). Let’s say he has trouble finding work for the next two weeks. Should he fast for those two weeks? Should he not be fed by others?
6. In light of your statement about healthcare, which person in the story of the “Good Samaritan” are you, the priest or the Levite? I don’t care if my tax dollars are used to aid the sick and the hurting. Why do you?
7. Since you used the Old Testament, are you aware that God instructed farmers NOT to harvest to the end of their fields so that the poor could FREELY come in and get food? Was God redistributing wealth? And when the disciples told Jesus that “there is a little boy here with 5 loaves and 2 fish”, did they ask the little boy for his lunch? Was Jesus redistributing the boys food to everyone else? Stay with me AJ, I’m not done.
8. What form of government or economics is biblical AJ? Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, etc.? Do you have a chapter and verse?
9. Can you document where Obama says the he wants my children to be taught about homosexuality in kindergarden? You know AJ, if you can’t document this, then you have slandered this man. Slander is a sin too AJ!
10. Have you read Matthew 16:18? The cause of Christ does not need to be enhanced or protected by feeble human governments. The Sovereign of the Universe is it’s protector and enhancer! Are you sure you want to point that “biblical” finger as much as you are?
11. Have you prayed for God to change the hearts of those judges with whom you disagree or were you hoping that one or more of them would die or retire so your savior-elect John McCain would appoint new ones? Whatever happened to proclaiming the gospel? Was it replaced by voting?
Perhaps you are the one who needs to “search” his/her heart. In my opinion, your thoughts aren’t as biblically motivated and shaped as you may think. The fact that you would intrust so much of the future for the Church and individual Christians on what happens in politics, speaks volumes.
AJ Erwin,
Can you explain something to me?
Why is that you say:
But then in turn you say:
I ask because what it sounds like to me is:
1. It is not okay for the Church to want the government to provide for the needy and the poor especially the “healthcare is not a right” statement.
2. It is okay for the Church to want the government to uphold our Christian Moral values.
That seems a bit paraodxical to me can you explain how that works? We should want a good moral politican to uphold Christian values but not one who provides for the poor and marginalized? Shouldn’t the church not want either then given your statement?
Points well taken AJ, but what do we do about the “Moral” leader currently residing as Leader and Chief of this country? About 75% of those who consider themselves Religious Conservatives are generally recognized as having been the deciding factor of the 2004 election. He is the man who was declared to be “Christ-honoring” yet, on his watch we have had one of the worst attacks on America soil take place on 9-ll, the worst natural disaster in US history with Katrina and are currently in the worst financial disaster in American history. What about the thousands of innocent individuals who were murdered in Iraq? What does that say?
I tend to believe that when “Christians” start saying “This is our man because he has a moral stand on the issues that are important to us”, I believe is beyond what we’re called to do… to an extent. I agree that every Believer that votes should vote based upon their convictions.
George Bush was the RIGHT man at the RIGHT time in history to bring this country to the place it currently is. Barack Obama is the RIGHT man at this juncture of American history to take this country where ever he is supposed to, because neither of these candidates have won their respective elections outside of the plan of God.
So whether we agree with their policies, we are commanded to pray for our leaders. Pray that God’s will be done and not ours!
I Ain’t Nobody!
1. Absolutely, Al Mohler, as well as yourself and myself have fleshly emotions. He does however, give a perspective on culture and politics with much consideration with what is consummate with God’s revealed truth. Though, point taken, his perspective is not inspired by God. My point was that we should all take the same approach and weigh our emotions and actions with the scripture.
2. Amen, Christ is our King and He is sovereign and Obama is president ONLY because God has made him so. To fight against God’s sovereignty is futile and rebellious but we must recognize wickedness and stand against it not for it. In a republic like we have been blessed with in America, brings a new responsibility for us as Christians in our culture. We get to vote, and that vote speaks to the lost around us and identifies us as a people. America is not God’s kingdom, nor am I implying that, but WE are in the eyes of the world when we profess Christ, and we had better be able to defend everything and everyone we support regardless of whether the endeavor is spiritual or not from the scriptures.
3. It sounds as though you are labeling war itself as sinful. I assume that you would encourage every believer to have no part in war (conscientious objector). I disagree. I believe the Just War Theory gives ample reasons for war. The atrocities of war are a result of sin though not necessarily sinful. I don’t believe that a Christian must be against war or capital punishment because it takes life. God has given “the sword” to the governmental authority. It can be used sinfully and it can also be used righteously, but that’s not our debate here. I cannot defend the war in Iraq any more than I can deny that the world is a better place without the wickedness of a man that would rape, torture and kill his own people. But I also cannot agree that we must get out of Iraq in six months and shrink our military and weaponry. I believe that evil exists in the world and we must remain strong in order to combat it, particularly with Iran threatening to go nuclear and Russian communists and militants coming to power again. It is a dynamic subject and one that cannot be simplified with quips and demonized by mentioning the slaughter of pregnant women. By the way, from what I remember, during “shock and awe”, the locals were warned to stay inside and residential areas were not targeted.
4. Before God, it is the responsibility of fathers to educate their children. It is a privilege that our government affords to PROVIDE an education for any of its citizens, but it is not mandatory YET, that the government is the only one that can educate. There are many in our government today that would love to see the competition for the public school system demolished by outlawing private and home schooling. I don’t have a problem with the government providing an education, but I DO have a problem sinking more money into that system when it fails miserably. Why are liberals like Obama so afraid of vouchers for? Perhaps because it would relinquish the government from it’s indoctrination of our children. Hitler once said that if he had control of the text books of the elementary school children, he could control the next generation, hmmm. Do you want your children going to the courthouse to watch their lesbian teacher get married? Obama encourages it.
5. The verse refers to an individual that is able to work but his life is characterized by sloth and unwillingness to provide for himself. I was laid off from a position with a chemical plant that filed bankruptcy in 2000, when I decided to go to back to school to get my chemistry degree. I never considered the government as a bailout. I didn’t have to fast because I went to work immediately, why, because I was willing to do whatever I could, cut grass, collect buggies at Walmart, etc., in order to provide for me, my wife and two children. This country is wealthy with opportunity and programs for the individual that is willing to work. As I said, the church should always provide for it’s own first and be there to lead the world in benevolence.
6. No this is down right nasty of you. You are not reading what I am writing. I don’t want my tax dollars to do the job of the families, communities and churches. The church is the organization that built the first hospitals in this country. Why, because of benevolence, LOVE. It is the responsibility of the family, community and church to care for those around us. News flash! The good Samaritan was a neighbor according to the parable, not the government. I am willing to care for those around me, are you, or would you prefer the government to do your benevolent work? The government has always overspent and failed at every endeavor they have attempted that is out of the proper scope of the government. I am suggesting that like education, benevolence is not the scope of the government but the scope of the people.
7. Boaz is a great example of this benevolence, not only does he leave the corners of the fields but also tells his servants to leave some of the best of the harvest for Ruth to harvest – because of her work ethic to care for her mother-in-law. Ruth blessed, Boaz blessed and God blessed richly because of the willingness. This provision for the reapers required the reapers to work for what they got, it wasn’t harvested for them. But again this would be likened unto a lawful provision for the poor and needy to do small jobs for businesses for a fair wage, not taking from the business to distribute as the government decides. The bible consistently teaches that those that produce should receive more (the parable of the talents). The suggestion of “leveling the field” when it comes to worldy riches is to suggest discretionary thievery. Take the homeless guy with the sign, the “reaper” principle would suggest bringing him home to cut your grass and then paying him fairly for it, not stopping the guy in the $90,000 Lexus and giving the homeless guy his credit card for the week because the Lexus man has too much. Perhaps Christ sent the little boy home with the twelve baskets of leftovers, maybe Messiah Obama will do that with the money he redistributes.
8. I can hear you saying it now, the church in Acts was communistic because they “had all things in common”. Without wasting to much of your webspace, I’ll suffice to say that capitalism is easily supported in scripture particularly in the parables of Christ. He presupposes that there are very wealthy and there are the very poor and never condemns this or makes demands except to love. He does attack the love of money (the rich young ruler) but never the possession of it. The early church in Jerusalem had serious issues caring for one another because of the severe persecution. The church in America may be headed for something similar.
9. Obama bragged about teaching his six year old about homosexuality and he pushed very hard for a bill in Illinois to begin sex education in Kindergarten. I admit I presumed that if he wants sex-ed in K, and he believes it was important enough to talk to his daughter about homosexuality at the age of six, that he would include homosexuality in his sex-ed plan for kindergarteners.
10. Forgive my loose use of words, you are absolutely right. Let me clarify what I intended to say. Take Joseph and his brothers. His brothers intended their wicked act for evil but God ordained it for His righteous purpose. Do we therefore praise the wicked works of the brothers for doing God’s will? We as Christians must not endorse or promote wickedness. In voting with a choice between two evils, we must carefully weigh out the degree of heinousness.
11. I do pray for all our leaders that we may, as Paul said, live in peace. The fact is though, that there are powers of darkness at work under God’s sovereign hand and we must not align ourselves with it. I hope that you are not suggesting that to call evil “evil”, is equivalent to not praying for, or hoping destruction upon that wicked individual.
I am only suggesting that when we proclaim Christ, we bear His name when we support an endorse. May we do it with much prayer and fear lest we bring reproach upon His name.
Bro Lawrence D. Thanks for your response. However you are saying that gays and lesbians are not a people but an action taken that makes it gay or lesbian. It is a fact that gays are the way they are and cannot change same as you being black and cannot change that which defines you as that of your person in that case being race. I’m sorry but it is bigoted to lie and say that gay and lesbian is not a particular form of people when I know that is what it is. You simply do not accept them and don’t like them and have false opinions blasphemy ones of them. They are who they are as you are a heterosexual man. You cannot change you for that and I am sure you got married and had kids of your own desires and has nothing to do with riteousness, justice or especially god or jesus. It’s because that is who you are not what you did in action. Same with us. Cut the lies and bigotry . You will be blamed for this on judgment day remember. Ignorance is not accepted as any excuse to god.
Bro Lawrence D. I cannot feel feelings for women in kissing, holding hands or especially sex. I can only like that with men being gay. This is not an action but an inner being a soul a person different from a hetero one. it is not an action it is a total being. You curse the souls of gays and lesbians from god in your false talk and reasoning. You are totally wicked and ungodly. And if i really was christian which i am anti christian now and i’m sure i can thank you for that as well as all of you evil liars out there that if there really was a god and jesus to judge you would only face burning hell and no chance of salvation because your work is evil. You held your head high on something you ended up being born with that’s all you did to get it. And you demean and put out a certain people and discriminate and lie of them and see yourself as of christ and living a good life under god or an acceptable, savable one. You sicko.
Bro/Sis AJ (please tell me which one in your next response)
1. Can two people study the scriptures on political issues and come to different conclusions? Your statement assumes that this is not possible.
2. I voted “absentee”. No one saw me vote. No one called to survey me. Nothing. So how was my vote some kind of “witness to the world”? And would you agree that a large percentage of those who tell surveyors that they are “evangelical Christians” are actually not at all? And being in a republic does not add any responsibility to the Christian life. We love, we serve, we pray and all under the Lordship of Christ. How does being in a republic add to that? Where is the scripture that says I must vote? Chapter and verse please.
3. I did not express an opinion on war. I asked a question which you did not answer. Will you answer the question please?
4. Quoting Hitler, who also said the same thing about the “music” of the youth, is not an answer to my question.
5. So it sounds like you don’t mind government being involved so long as there is proper oversight. But what about those who can’t work (physically/mentally disabled) or the children of those who don’t/can’t work. What’s your solution for them, “let em starve”? That was Hitler’s attitude as well.
6. Perhaps my statement was nasty and for that I apologize. However, you seem to have an either/or philosophy concerning the poor and I have a both/and. The church in America is spending close to 75% of it’s money on overhead (bigger buildings, salaries, etc.). So I don’t mind that the government seeks to make up the difference.
7. Again, you didn’t answer my question. In God’s provision for the poor, was He redistributing wealth? Was giving to the poor mandatory or voluntary? You can’t have it both ways.
8. Again, I didn’t give an opinion I asked a question. Will you please answer it. Chapter and verse please. Btw, every system ran by sinful men is flawed. Period. Socialism, capitalism, and communism all start off with man and his good nature as their premise for success. Care to dispute that? So AJ, is God a capitalist, communist, socialist? Which system would best characterize Jesus’ economic life?
9. I asked for documentation, a link to a website will suffice. Or could it be that you are repeating something you heard?
10. I just love the ol’ “lesser of two evils” argument. This assumes that God is more okay with a lilttle evil than a lot. Sorry but the God I see in the bible is 100% holy. Not much room there for a game of “Well God, at least I only hit my wife once. I wanted to kick her too but I decided to do the lesser of two evils.” A non-vote would seem to be more in line with the will of God than the “lesser of two evils” method.
11. You are not calling evil, evil. You are saying that one particular side is evil. You need to admit this. Name one politician that ran and won on the platform that he/she would seek to do God’s will while in office. One. Is George Bush any more welcome to teach a bible study class in your fellowship than Barack Obama? Have you ever prayed that God would save George Bush from his sins? I bet you have for Barack. Or did you just pray that he would change his mind on abortion? Something tells me that most of the hard-nosed “Christian conservatives” could care less about the souls of those with whom they disagree. You included.
You see AJ, the problem is that when you say “we need to”, I’m not sure whether you’re talking about America, or the Church or the individual Christian. They are not one and the same. This is not a Theocracy. This is not a Christian country. America is no more responsible before God than Iran.
As believers, we have direct instruction as to what our role is concerning matters of government. I’ll list some scriptures for you to look at. Romans 13:1-7; I Timothy 2:1-4; I Peter 2:13-17; Titus 3:1-8. When you find voting, picketing, writing letters to congressmen, “letting our voice be heard”, “taking a public stand”, etc. let me know.
Justme,
You may mean more when you say you are gay but you aren’t saying more. You are only describing your sexual preference. That’s it buddy. Gay can and do change. Are all “ex-gays” liars? You are saying that either they were never gay or they are still and are just lying about it.
Btw, you don’t know how I feel about homosexuals. You don’t have a clue. But facts are facts. The word homosexual only means one thing. Also, you don’t know if I find men sexually attractive or not. Whether I do or not, has nothing to do with the facts. I do know that I choose my sexual behavior. I don’t choose my feelings, that’s true. But I choose my behavior. I don’t sleep around behind my wife’s back. Not because I don’t have those feelings but because I exercise my choice. You can exercise a choice to not sleep with men, inspite of your feelings. You just won’t admit it.
Besides, is it okay for the guy who has “feelings” for his two year old neighbor to sexualize those feelings? Why or why not? The point is that feelings are not a justification for behavior of any kind.
Justme, I’m sorry that you are so invested in your behavior that you can’t see the facts for what they are. I don’t hate you. I don’t even know you. I haven’t curse your soul. Nor could I. I’m not God. But guess what, because you call yourself gay, I know what sex you engage in. Doesn’t that seem strange to you?
And I suggest that before you tell me what is Christian and what is not, that you would familiarize yourself with the bible, which is the guide for us. It is the way that God has decided to reveal Himself and His will for mankind. If you don’t accept His revelation, then you can’t begin to tell me what Jesus would or would not approve of.
Bro Lawrence D, you automatically assume i have sex with other men. I never said I was. I don’t. I have in the past. It just proves your unfairness and falseness with gay people. You still don’t get it. I tell the truth that i’m gay and that is who I am not my choice. Don’t tell me you take a woman and have kids not being hetero that’s baloney and your using that against us. Oh boy. There may be certain people who were gay and are now straight orvisa versa. But I do not understand it. My explanation would be they are really bi sexual. Don’t use a few of peoples witness they were gay and not now. To use that as it is for all gay people. That is just unfair and cheating. You still are wrong. Gay people are who they are not what they do. IF I were to want to marry or not another man or if i wanted to sleep with one what is the point in my actions since your not giving me any choices to do this in good standing anyway but you would turn around and judge me for haveing done them even though you offered nothing for me to do except be celibut. Do you think your the only man in the world who has a heart and needs and feelings? Don’t you think we gays would like to be with christ and share love with other people. YOu just won’t let us. You are ostersising us and keeping us out. I hope jesus will be a fair judge to me and understand and forgive me for having rejected him, being what his people have and keep putting me through. The blasphemy of lies about me and leaving me totally empty handed in order for me to be right while you all live up your lives and judge us. Don’t you understand the bad behavior you are living out? You must stop this for the sake of us gays and lesbians who are being under attack for our beings. You can’t possibly really think you are good and godly can you?
Justme,
Perhaps my fellow Christian bloggers would suggest that, at this point, I should discontinue this conversation since you are not a believer. But I will give it one last go around and you can then have the last word. I will go point by point.
1. My initial reason for responding to you was to let you know that you should not have expected special consideration from Black people simply because of the issue of discrimination. The discrimination simply is not the same.
2. I love you and I hate to see you so conflicted between what you feel, what is right, and what is accepted. I would not want to be in your shoes. I realize that your feelings are real. I don’t minimize them. However, feelings are not a justification for behaviors.
3. I did not assume that you had sex with men. I said that you calling yourself “gay” told me what your sexual preference was, not your sexual activity. Please point out for me where I said otherwise.
4. I don’t believe that gay people can change simply by the testimony of those who have. I believe it because I believe in the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, through the gospel of Jesus Christ, upon everyone who believes. The new heart that is promised in the New Covenant will enable you to overcome a lifestyle of sin that displeases God. If you have a bible, read Romans 6.
5. I don’t have the power or authority to give approval to your choice of lifestyle. That belongs to the Sovereign God of heaven who has revealed Himself in the bible. He has declared that homosexuality is a sin. He has declared that unrepentant continuance in homosexuality will result in spending an eternity in torment away from His presence. I did not invent or decide that and I cannot change it. I don’t and can’t judge you but God’s word does and can.
6. I don’t doubt that you want to be with Christ AS YOU UNDERSTAND HIM but you want to be with your sin more than you want to be with Christ as He has revealed Himself in the bible. And so did I before He rescued me!
7. I must tell you that rejecting Christ because of what people who claim to be attached to him say and do to you is not a justifiable reason. Reject them, if they are so bad. But how can reject Christ if He hasn’t done anything against you? That’s like rejecting forks because you don’t like spoons.
8. When it comes to having to live according to God’s standard in spite of what I may otherwise want, the only way I can “live it up” is to focus on God’s great love for me and be convinced in my heart that He is worthy of my allegiance and worship. When and if you are ever convinced of the great love that God has shown you in sending His Son Jesus Christ to bear the penalty for your sins, then you will be willing to give up anything, even your homosexuality, to be with Him.
9. I do not think that I am good or godly in and of myself. In this you are absolutely correct. I, again, do not have any authority to judge based on my own standards. But when I tell you God’s standards and you see that you fall short of them, that is not me judging you but Him. It is Him that you will one day have to reckon with. Without Christ as your Savior and Lord, you don’t stand a chance. And neither would I!
Justme, you go ahead and have the last word. Unless you have questions, then I will respond. If you would be so kind, try and answer the questions that I put to you in my previous post. The last thing I want to say is this, don’t take my word for anything. Go to the bible and if you are convinced that what it says puts you in grave danger, then just cry out to God for salvation. And He will rescue you like He did me. He is no respecter of persons!
Bro. Lawrence D,
I wish you would actually read and attempt to understand what I’m writing. A conversation can only be fruitful if both parties are attempting to understand the other one. All you’ve done so far is attack what you are reading into what I’ve written. Such as, I mentioned my “wife and two children” – that would make me “Bro. AJ”. Please pay attention or this is a waste of time, but I will answer your bombardment of questions concisely and subsequently have some for you.
1. No I don’t believe that Mohler doesn’t have fleshly emotions when it comes to his views nor do I believe that every Christian has to have the same conclusion. However, I believe there is only one truth, we can both be wrong but we can’t both be right so let us reason together and seek the truth rather than attack.
2. It matters how biblical a leader that we support is because we as Christians openly support him. It matters whether or not he embodies our biblical principles as closely as possible. Unfortunately neither embodies them very much, but surely one is farther away than the other. I didn’t have to see you vote, you’re publishing your adamant support of Barak Obama all over this Christian website. Do you think that we can profess Christ before men and then openly support homosexuality and abortion without bringing reproach on the name of Christ? This is what I am referring to with regards to our responsibility as Christians, do you disagree? Do you believe that we can support whatever we want to as long as “we love, we serve, and we pray”? What does “Lordship” mean to you? Doesn’t it mean that EVERYTHING we do is done according to what is pleasing to Him and not to us?
3. Yes, on the scale of things, Bush and McCain’s positions are much more biblically defensible than Obama’s. And you did express a dislike for the unfortunate results of war, so I again ask you the question, do you believe that war is sinful or is it just a convenient way of demonizing Bush and McCain by portraying them as indifferent to the casualties of war so that you can make the positions equally as heinous as homosexuality and abortion?
4. Your question was about college level or below and your comment was that it IS the law. I answered your question by emphasizing “children” and the context is clearly “elementary”. And I responded to your comment about it being law by clarifying that it is not mandatory that the education be provided by the Federal government but that the government must make it available. The law does NOT demand that the parent use the public school system, though this is what activist judges would like to see. Christians should be concerned about this because the public school system is and enemy to the scriptures, prayer, the existence of God, etc.
5. How in the world do you get that I don’t mind the government being involved out of what I wrote? I already gave an answer regarding those that are unable. It is out of the scope of the government to take care of benevolence. It is the responsibility of family, community, and the church to care for those around us, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. How do you interpret that to mean that I believe we should just “let em starve”? Are you listening? I say that burden is on the people, not the governement. God commanded individuals to love, not the government. I never said there shouldn’t be help for the hurting, I said it shouldn’t come from the government and people should never expect the government to do what they should be doing. That promotes individuals to be slothful and apathetic – “Oh, the government will take care of that.” Is this the only option in your mind, for the government to do it all. Do you agree with Obama that we are not individuals but a unit lead by the government. The founding fathers believed that we must govern ourselves to maintain our liberty, but what will we get if the people keep begging for the government to provide all the answers? No more liberty!
6. Exactly my point. The church is neglecting it’s duty to the fellow man. The church has the same wrong attitude, “let the government take care of it” towards things that it should be doing.
7. God’s commandments to his people was for benevolence, love. He was mandating a way to show mercy for the poor around them. He made provision for the poor to be able to work and live. It was never to be a way out of poverty but a merciful way for them to provide for their basic need to eat. I’m not trying to have it both ways, I’m consistent in saying that God demands that His people (the church) care for the hurting around us. This is our responsibility, NOT THE GOVERNMENTS! Are you suggesting that you are New Covenant and a theonomist, because that dear brother is having it both ways and self contradictory.
8. Demanding a chapter and verse for everything displays your lack of understanding of the implicit versus explicit teachings of scripture. There is no “chapter and verse” for the doctrine of the Trinity but it is clearly taught implicitly in throughout scripture. The teachings of Christ allow for capitalism more so than the other. That is NOT to say that “Jesus was a capitalist”. Capitalism fits the principles of scripture better than the other models. Also, historically, proponents of socialism, marxism, and communism were atheists and men that praised Charlie Darwin because Darwin gave them a “scientific” explanation to the people that there was no God. Fundamentally, these systems raise the “State” to be “the provider”. Jehovah Jireh is competition to the state, and those systems can’t have competition. This is why Obama has been called the “messiah” by the marxist liberals, because he has the charisma to pull off turning America into a marxist country with little resistance.
9. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=73120
10. I never implied that God is okay with a little evil, but there are degrees of sinfulness. It only takes one sin to send a person to hell but that doesn’t mean that stealing a pen from your office is equally as heinous as raping a four year old. In this election, Christians had only two choices, neither is acceptable by God’s standards, but there are degrees. I suggest that Obama is the worst, not the only wicked one, but the WORST candidate for a Christian to have to choose.
11. Why do you insist on polarizing the issue? I never said Obama is evil and McCain is godly. I said that Obama is not the best choice for a Christian to support.
Remember, you brought up the whole idea of McCain being worse than Obama. Everyone knows that Obama has a wicked agenda, but you suggest that McCain’s agenda is more wicked, therefore making Obama the better choice for president from a Christian perspective.
AJ said:
“In this election, Christians had only two choices, neither is acceptable by God’s standards, but there are degrees. I suggest that Obama is the worst, not the only wicked one, but the WORST candidate for a Christian to have to choose.”
AJ, I’m curious… do you believe the “right” man was elected President of the United States according to God’s plan? Are the purposes of God for America being fulfilled?
I Ain’t Nobody!
God’s plan is being accomplished! As I mentioned earlier about Joseph’s brothers. God’s plan was carried out through the sins of Joseph’s brothers, but just because God’s will is not thwarted does NOT mean that sin has to be good because God’s will is accomplished through it. This is akin to hypercalvinism. You must understand that God’s soveriengty and man’s reponsibility are both true. God’s has ordained every event, and yet we are responsible for every thought and deed. So, yes I believe God’s will is being accomplished through Obama’s election and I also believe that it is God’s will is for His people to stand against righteousness. Are you implying that if I say that Obama is a wicked man then I do not believe that God’s will is for him to be president? Because you would have to be consistent and also say that abortion is not wicked because God has purpose in it. That’s dangerous djdesignz!
AJ,
I think there seems to be one problem that I have with your approach. That is that you believe Obama is further from God than McCain. Let me ask you do you think a righteous man would sing “Bomb, bomb Iran”?
Next you talk about war, should Christians actively seek war? My answer to that is no. Mr. McCain feels it is our responsibility to go after Iran. That is not the heart of a Gospel centered man.
Again I must ask you, which I don’t think you answered. How is it that you feel it isn’t the governments responsibility to meet the need of the marginalized, the widow, the orphaned, those who were raised by crack mommas and no daddies, but you feel it is his job to govern by Christian principles?
To me there is no way to harmonize the two? Let me ask this then. Is it the church’s job to ensure that the poor ge t proper healthcare, that they are fed and clothed?
I just can’t understand for the life of me, how we have no problem and even desire a president to uphold moral (abortion and homosexuality) Christian values and only vote for a man who will, while we simultaneously say it isn’t that same man’s job to follow the Christian value of feeding the poor the widow, the orphan and meeting the real needs of individuals. How exactly do you harmonize that. Either we want them to go all the way or none of the way, it seems that you are drawing a false dichotomoy between abortion and meeting physical needs one Jesus NEVER does.
That is far from what I’m implying AJ… let me present a hypothetical scenerio.
Let’s say that the presidential candidates were two New Testament Candidates… Saul and Judas!
A taste of Saul:
Acts 8:1-3
1 Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.
A taste of Judas:
John 12:1-6
1 Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead,* whom He had raised from the dead.
2 There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him.
3 Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. 4 Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said,
5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?”
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.
Candidate Saul is definitely not Christ-honoring since he is dragging Believer’s off to prison, he doesn’t deserve our vote and could be considered the worst candidate a Believer could vote for.
But candidate Judas seems to have a desire to help the poor, he appears to be the Christ-honoring candidate and definitely would be a better candidate for Believer’s to vote for.
We very much in the same way make decisions based on the information we have and oftentimes we use that information to project what may happen. The problem is, we as Believers are often outta step with God because of OUR will and desires! Just like the Disciples had a desire for things to go a certain way, a way that didn’t include Christ’s crucifixion… that’s human nature.
Despite candidate Saul’s background to date, God confronted, converted and mightily used… Paul.
Judas was a Disciple chosen! A much better candidate according to his background to date. Yet he betrayed Jesus, which in the end was a good thing for us all!
The point is… yes we must stand against ALL unrighteousness, for ALL unrighteousness is sin! But when we as Believer’s start to throw our support POLITICALLY behind candidates, it doesn’t necessarily send the message that God desires!
Selah!
I Ain’t Nobody!
It’s not a matter of harmonizing dichotomous positions, it is a matter of scope. I pray you understand what I mean when I talk about the “scope of the government” versus the “scope of the individual”. It is the scope of government to wage war when it is appropiate, it is the scope of the government to punish those that break the law, it is the scope of government to protect life through enforcing the law and punishing those that break it (this is where abortion is relevant), it is NOT the scope of the government to educate our children about sex and to establish religious institutions (like marriage). It is the scope of the individual to feed the poor and care for the orphan. This is true religion according to the scripture, religion of the christian individual, not the state.
Here is an example, the Pastor is to teach and nurture the church in the doctrines of the apostles, this is within his scope. He does this according to the scriptures. If the pastor attempts to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, then he begins to operate out of his scope, that’s my job.
If we had a godly man as a president then he should do all within the scope of president as biblically as possible. He should also perform in his personal life, family life and church life, as biblically as possible. These are all different scopes with different responsibilities. you cannot confuse between the scope of a president and the scope of the person, they should all be done under the Lordship of Christ.
Feeding the poor is not a moral issue for the office of president, it is for the individual but not for the president. I am a chemist. It is my reponsibility as a believer, not a chemist, to feed the poor and care for the widow. I care for others because the love of God flows out of me, not because I’m a chemist, caring for the poor is not within the scope of a chemist.
Are you suggesting then that since I analyze chemicals for a living instead of feeding the poor, that I am not acting like a believer? I analyze chemicals as a profession and feed the poor as a believer, to different realms. To say McCain is immoral because he doesn’t support the “care for the poor” programs like Obama, is silly because that’s not the job of the president. I would pray that a good president would do these things in his personal, family and church life but it shouldn’t be necessary to hold these policies as the president.
So do you know that McCain doesn’t hold biblical values regarding the care of the poor in his personal, family and church life, or are you assuming that because he doesn’t support policies for the government perform benevolence in the community.
To believe that war is a necessity in some cases and to “seek” war are totally different. Do you believe that all war is sinful? This is a complicated issue and one that needs to be well thought out before making blanket statements or exagerating the issue.
Does that make sense? Can a man believe it’s not the governments job to educate and discipline my children and still be godly. Can he believe it’s the responsibility of the community to care for the poor and be against the government absolving the people of that responsibility and still be godly?
AJ,
Is this your statement:
If it is you have flip flopped. You previous statement is the most flakey I have heard from someone who says “what does he bring to our country that is Christ-honoring”? Is it the job of the president to bring “Christ’honoring” values to America? Isn’t that the job of the church? Is it the job of the President to uphold “the institution of family”? Isn’t that the job of the individual and the Church? In one breath you say it is the presidents job to uphold “Christ-honoring” values but in the other breath you dismiss “Christ-honoring” values. I should vote for the person who is best for America then and it seems that America wants Abortion, some states want Gay Marriage, some people want to live off of the hard work of others and some people don’t feel bad that they will (the majority of Americans voted for Obama). I am so confused about your above paragraph then your previous comment post. Help me understand please.
I don’t expect the state to resemble or function like the church.
If you expect the government to act or function like the church you will be sorely disappointed.
Like Bono says, if you want someone to blame, throw a rock in the air, you’ll hit someone guilty.
An excellent resource on this issue is a book entitled: Why Government Can’t Save You-An Alternative to Political Activism by John Macarthur.
I like what our brother Daniel and sister Heather wrote so beautifully on their blog Like a Mustard Seed:
“We see many people coming to the conviction that however you end up choosing to vote in the political process, ultimately the changes that come from being a citizen in Jesus’ Kingdom can never be superficially imposed on the greater population through laws and leaders, but can only come through a changed heart, being made alive again through faith in Christ.”
Hutch,
I agree, my responses are to those who choose a candidate for certain values then make other values the “individual’s responsibility”. I just think there are blaring inconsistencies.
Bro. AJ (Thanks for the clarification),
1. This is the problem with calling yourself “biblical” in regards to a vote for a candidate. If we can’t both be right, then what do you do when two different candidates are “right” on different issues? Oh yeah, you play the “lesser of two evils” game.
2. “We as Christians” are not called to “openly support” any candidate. Christians do this by choice. By the way, Prophet AJ, who did I vote for? You accused me of supporting Obama “all over this Christian website”. I hope you can document that or you are now guilty of being a liar and a slanderer since you intended to defame me with that charge. Now unless you meant “support” in some other way, then you owe me and apology. My support for President-Elect Obama begins and ends in prayer. As for any other politician.
3. I’m not accusing Bush or McCain of being indifferent to the casualties of war. I am accusing evangelical Christians such as yourself of being indifferent. An abortion is the taking of an innocent life. So is bombing an apartment complex in Iraq because Al Queda is inside. Even if you kill four combatants, that doesn’t excuse killing the women and children who were just at home with their husbands and fathers. Since you are so adamant about what “we Christians” should think and feel, then let me tell you that “we” should be as heartbroken over their deaths as we are over the unborn. Sin causes it all. Or does calling it “war” justify it? You keep avoiding this question by asking me one. Hmmm.
4. I’m utterly confused as to what you are responding to here so I’ll skip this one.
5. Uh, perhaps it was this statement: “I don’t have a problem with the government providing an education, but I DO have a problem sinking more money into that system when it fails miserably.” Do you remember typing this?
6. I guess we agree here?
7. You still didn’t answer my question but I’ll allow you to pass on this one. I think I understand why you are.
8. So you are going to equate the Doctrine of the Trinity with economics? Hmmm? Okay,if that’s your only tactic, then you don’t have to answer this question either. Also, you should look up the term “Genetic Fallacy”.That is basically the rejection of information or an argument because of who it comes from. Just because those men were Atheist doesn’t mean that their economic views were wrong. If they were wrong, it was for other reasons. Btw, are the bailouts biblical? And when you get a rebate check or “stimulus check” do you send it back on priciple? I didn’t think so. It’s easy to spout that “biblical capitalism” in a discussion with me but do you live it out without hypocrisy? And don’t give me any jazz about donating it. If the government is not supposed to send it out because it’s unbiblical, then you shouldn’t receive it. Period.
9. Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out.
10. My absentee presidential ballot had at least 6 candidates that I can name and a few I can’t. It also had this little line at the bottom for a “write-in” candidate. It’s the right-wing Pharisaical conservative “Christian” that wants us to believe that there were only two choices. They call a vote for a third-party candidate (the choice I happened to make) a “wasted” vote. Unbelievable!
11. Where did I say “implicitly” or “explicitly” that McCain was worse than Obama? More “lies and slander” for $100 Bob! And again, you didn’t answer any of my questions here.
Bro AJ, I hope that you come to realize how much you have invested in politics and that it makes you appear to actually be the “wordly” thinker here, not me. I know that God’s ultimate will is going to be accomplished. I know that He decides who to “mercy” and who to “harden”. I pray for grace upon the heart of all those who are against Him, even if that means me.
But alas, perhaps you are right about us wasting our time with one another. And since others are asking you questions as well, I will let you focus your attention there. My gift to you is the last word. That is if you don’t mind a little wealth distribution.
Bro. Hutch,
Man where were you when I needed you? In that short post you expressed my heart wonderfully. Thank you brother!!!!!!!!
Bro. Lawrence D.-
I can’t take credit for that last comment, but the overall sentiment is how I see it.
I think both the religious right and the emergent church that leans left of center fall prey to the same error.
One group wants to legislate morality and the other wants to legislate compassion.
I am embarrassed when I think of how politically active I used to be and how much time I wasted worrying about who would be elected.
Daniel and Heathers last blog post is really awesome; check it out if you have not already done so.
Hutch,
You said:
“I think both the religious right and the emergent church that leans left of center fall prey to the same error.
One group wants to legislate morality and the other wants to legislate compassion”
I say error on both or neither that is the only way to be consistent. But you know which one I error in. LBTCB (Let’s be the church baby)!
Actually I haven’t invested much at all into politics. I have contemplated issues at times but this posting is a first for me to spend much any time at all in discussions like this. I confess I was disappointed Tuesday night but Wednesday morning I was comforted by the Spirit as he convicted me that grumbling and murmuring is always against Him. I too will continue to pray for the salvation and guidance of our leaders. Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
I only posted because there is so much talk about this election and it escapes me how christians can justify the support of candidates that vow to exercise the power of the government to support homosexuality and abortion. And I DO see these issues as clear-cut wickedness. These other issues mentioned are debateable.
I do resent being called a liar and a slanderer, though if the shoe fits I guess we wear it together Judge Lawrence. Your contentiousness is exasperating.
AJ, there are “Christians” who have a justification for everything!
Praise God that although we may not agree with the President’s stance on varying issues, our hope is not tied to this Government, this country or this world… at least it shouldn’t be!
Pray that God’s will be done!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Lionel, Hutch, and DJ,
I need you brothers to hold me accountable. I offered AJ the last word and I’m tempted to take it back. I have asked for evidence to support the accusations that he leveled at me and not only has he not provided the evidence, he levels another accusation. Would one of you encourage him to do so or tell me where I am wrong? I will submit to your judgment and if I have wronged AJ, I will apologize.
I’m sorry Lionel, I missed your post:
“AJ Is this your statement?’
Yes it was, and I recanted that earlier explaining that I mis- contrued my intent.
You asked –
Is it the job of the president to bring “Christ’honoring” values to America?
NO! And I expect him not to delve into destroying them either.
Isn’t that the job of the church?
YES!
Is it the job of the President to uphold “the institution of family”?
NO and it is also not his job to dismantle it or redefine it either.
Isn’t that the job of the individual and the Church?
Absolutley and amen. Unfortunately the courts have to make a judgement when issues art brought to them (Roe V Wade) and the hand is forced for the government to step in and declare what is lawful. It gets complicated and it’s not so straight-forward. Authority has to “legislate morality” to some degree otherwise how do they determine what deserves punishment on a thief or a murderer, that’s legislating morality.
In one breath you say it is the presidents job to uphold “Christ-honoring” values but in the other breath you dismiss “Christ-honoring” values.
I wasn’t aware that I was dismissing Christ-honoring values. Please clarify so that I might repent. With regards to benevolence, I never dismissed it I just said it was our responsibility and the government steps in because we have failed. The church has allowed the government to step in and take over what is true religion. Think about it, the churches used to build the hospitals, now the government is about to take over the health care system. Churches used to run orphanages but the government is now the social service. Liberty is being snuffed out as the government expands it’s jurisdiction and the church just sits by and applauds it.
Hey Bro LD,
Well I think your last comments could be perceived as a little over the line in tone.
Race, morality, religion and sexuality are all issues that people are very passionate about and discussions can often go in unintended directions.
It’s a delicate balance trying to read what someone is saying versus what they’re meaning, and one verbal push can inflame the situation. At that point, the subsequent dialog tends to deteriorate.
The real problem is, there is only one truth and EVERYBODY believes they have it!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Or I should say… there is only one truth and WE ALL believe we have it!
Selah!
I Ain’t Nobody!
Bro Lawrence D, well you are right about one thing, we don’t have any understanding between the two of us. And I now understand I couldn’t get through to you. I’ll just say this: you said i must give up my homosexuality which is attatched and makes me who I am. But you haven’t shown that you gave yours. I see you have a beautiful wife and lovely children which i consider support and blessing and more. You are in a good position between the two of us in your understanding. Give to the poor and don’t expect someone to surrender themselves in such a way that you would never do yourself. Do as i say not as i do is not a standard of god.
Hey AJ,
I don’t disagree that is our job to provide benevolence brother. I am saying you are choosing what the government should uphold. As you say that the governments job isn’t to tear down Christian values then what if those values are contrast with another religons values? Whose values should the president uphold.
That is the question I can’t understand from those of the right persuasion. Why is it goverments job to uphold Christian values that may conflict with other people’s values. The government is to only play a role in allowing all religons to worship freely not to uphold any paticular religions values. And that is the government I am proposing. One that says we will not get involved at all even if that means taking tax statuses away.
You see abortion regardless of what we think is a religious issue. People believe that the life doesn’t begin until that life can sustain on its own. The same with euthenasia. If a life support machine is the only thing keeping them moving then people feel that they aren’t really living. Is it the churches job to uphold the religious value of life. Meaning that life begins at conception. A religious and theolgoical issue and life on a support machine can be regained (a hint towards healing divinely).
Tell me AJ exactly what sins or what evils should be punishable? Adultrey? Fornication? lusting? Where do we start and where do we stop. How much of which religion should have the right at public policy?
Finally I ask, when Paul wrote Romans what was the law? Was killing Chrisitans against Roman law in 1 Timothy 2? I think there was an order. With that it is the Churches job to uphold morality not the governments. The governments job is to uphold some form of order a very subjective order at that. Morality can only be defined by those who are redeemed. Thus it isn’t the governments job to uphold morality it is ours.
Finally the church can’t build hospitals because they are busy building outrageous buidlings, state of the art equipment and dividing over Calvinism and the Gifts of the Spirit. We have no authority with the outside world because we can’t even get it right inside as a whole. But Jesus will build his church. I only wrote this to say that either candidate was equally evil rather it is murdering babies in America or murdering babies in Iraq and Afghanstan. Bomb, Bomb Iran as the poor mother holds her mangled baby in her arms?
Vote for the candidate you like and be the church is my motto. The government won’t and can’t save us, so I don’t look to them to help the poor nor do I look for them to uphold Christian values. I look for them to be the enemy of God that all sinners are and I look to redeem them in the act of evangelism not politics.
Righter says that it is hypocritical to support war and oppose abortion…
Revelation 3:15-16 (King James Version)
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Living in a free democracy presents us with issues that christians didn’t have in Rome. If we lived in Afganistan, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Many of the men that founded this country were emphatic when they spoke of how it was necessary to govern according to the principleses of the Holy Bible, because they understood that a government MUST legislate morality. There can be no authority except that which comes from God. Our country understood that at one time but it is rapidly slipping away. Morality is absolute and it is established by the Holy character of God. If any leader, president, pastor, father, etc., leads does not lead according to God’s absolute morality, then he is like a ship without the proper navigation. Columbus could only travel navigating by the fixed point in the stars. For leaders, that fixed point must be the Word of God. Apart from that, we end up with a government and a people that “do what is right in their own eyes”, and we all know what the conditions were when the scriptures say this. Since we do have a republic, we as christians have, perhaps not an obligation, but at least an opportunity to be a democratic voice to hold fast to governing according to these principles found in scripture to keep the ship in the right direction.
I confess, this brings us to a dynamic that is beyond my puny intellect, but it is something to consider.
Bro. Lawrence, I would like to offer my sincerest apology to you particularly for the false accusation of your support for Obama and for being so snide in my responses to your comments. My wife tells me that I often allow my passions to deviate to an offense and arrogance, I thank God for my lovely wife and her graciousness in lovingly rebuking me, and with that I ask your forgiveness. You are correct, I am probably way to invested in political thought.
Please understand that my intentions are to honor Christ, even in politics and economy, but my initial post (allowing emotions to cloud clear christian thought) is probably more applicable to me than anyone else here. John Calvin said, “A zealot without doctrine is like a lunatic with a sword”, so sorry if I cut anyone!
AJ,
You said:
“Many of the men that founded this country were emphatic when they spoke of how it was necessary to govern according to the principleses of the Holy Bible, because they understood that a government MUST legislate morality. There can be no authority except that which comes from God. Our country understood that at one time but it is rapidly slipping away. Morality is absolute and it is established by the Holy character of God.”
Before I go forward I think I see what you are saying, but that leads to this.
1. Tell this to Africans
2. Tell this to slaves
3 Tell this to post-slavery Black Americans
4. Tell this to Indians
5. Tell this to my Grandmother!
If the bible is what governed morality from 1776 to 1965 then I have golden goose eggs that I will sale by the dozen my friend!
The truth regarding the founders of our country is that the men who wrote and shaped the Constitution and our Bill of Rights were a mixed bag. Were some of these men Christians with doctrine that most would consider orthodox? Yes, some were. Some were pastors of churches.
But, some were Deists like Jefferson and Franklin and many of the professing Christians and the Deists were also Masons. Jefferson wrote the Jefferson bible that took all the miraculous events out of the bible-it is still in print-I have read portions of it. Although Washington used a lot of Christian-Speak, on his inauguration day he performed a Masonic blood ritual to commemorate the occasion.
I have read a number of biographies of our founding fathers and have also read a number of the source documents. These guys were prolific letter writers and this information is easy to verify. The majority of the founders of America were not orthodox evangelical born again Christians.
The only documents that any person in public office is required to uphold when sworn in are our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. Something that brother Lionel pointed out was not even properly applied to all the people mentioned in the Constitution until very recently.
It would be an absolute disaster to entrust men and women who historically have not been able to apply the documents they are sworn to uphold with the task of using the bible as their document to enforce.
Think about the caption and illustration that Lionel has posted on his church and state dichotomy post and then let’s play a little game of what if:
What if a Seventh Day Adventist was to decide the laws that are to be binding upon us? All stores close on Saturday and all Old Covenant food prohibitions are enforceable.
What if a Reformed Baptist was to decide the laws that are to be binding upon us? All stores close on Sunday.
What if a New Covenant Anabaptist like me decided the laws that are to be binding upon us? All stores can be opened at the discretion of their owners as we have entered into our Sabbath rest in Christ, the OT Sabbath has been abolished as all days are now holy unto God and that we are to offer our lives up to God as living sacrifices as our reasonable act of daily worship and that only weak and immature believers are observers of days.
Now the Reformed Baptists and the Seventh Day Adventists and all type of Sabbatarians are mad at me! Grin.
This is a humorous example, but what if it was a Theonomist or even worse the racist branch of the Theonomists like the racist Rushdoony and the Sons of the South and their ilk?
We could go on and on.
America is not a theocracy and neither is it a pure democracy it is a representative republic not governed by the bible but by its founding documents.
Yes, this is oh too true. Though all authority comes from God, doesn’t insist that those that are given this authority rule according to God’s revealed will. We are all blind save the grace of God. I would refer again to Sherard Burns. He preached a message, at a conference hosted by Bethlehem Baptist, entitled “Jonathan Edwards For All Races”. In this message, he proceeds to beseech his white brothers to admit that Edwards was dead wrong to support such atrocities as slavery as it went down in America. He speaks to his black brothers and asks them to not throw out the theology of Edwards because he was wrong on slavery. I bring this up to ask that we not throw the baby out with the bath water. Gross injustices were done, we can definitely agree on that. But does that mean that the way they tried to set up government was wrong?
I have looked for this message on the Desiring God website but they have all the messages except for the one by Sherard, I’m not sure why. If you haven’t heard it, but are interested, email me, ajerwin@gmail.com.
Hutch,
You’re obviously more read on this than I, but I have read a bit of material from Dr James Kennedy (of course he was a theonomist) and David Barton and they submit a lot of evidence that there was almost unanimous agreement that it would be necessary to rule according to the scriptures for the whole government republic they had set up to work. It is my understanding that they believed that if the scriptures were neglected in governing, the system would fail, or something like that. I confess though, I don’t know what they thought because I didn’t know them I can only go on what I read and hear from others, and opinions and references are voluminous, and as mentioned by Bro Lawrence, it wouldn’t serve me well to invest too much more time in it , that wouldn’t be too profitable.
AJ-
The Pilgrims/Puritans were subjects of the King of England any local governments they set up in the colonies was an extension of the Monarchy.
Jonathan Edwards was a Puritan Preacher/Revivalist who died in 1758 many years before the independant government of the United States of America established by our founding fathers after the war for independance.
Jonathan Edwards never lived under the Constitution of the United States of America or its Bill of Rights he was subject to the laws of England and its Monarchy.
I am not sure what you mean about the government that the he tried to set up-the government he operated under and promoted, was abolished in 1776.
Again, the documents that govern the running of the United States of America are the Consititution and the Bill of Rights not what Jonathan Edwards taught, believed or operated under prior to 1776.
But, I think you are missing the point.
In yur opinion whose view of the bible should be the governing law in America?
Hutch,
You’re mistaking my reply to Lionel for a reply to you. I mentioned Edwards in reply to Lionel not to the foundations of America.
You have a fundamental problem if you want to remove religious values from governing. How can you govern if there are no morals? How can you establish law with no moral absolute? If you remove the moral absolute from a republic, then you are left with everyone determining what is right for them, moral relativism.
I’m not suggesting who’s view of the Bible, but simply the truth that the Bible is the only true standard for morality. You gotta have it or it’s anarchy. There is a reason that it was the standard for swearing in, our country once recognized the Bible as the standard of truth.
AJ,
1. Is there anarchy in Kuwait?
2. Is there anarch in China
4. Is there anarchy in South Korea?
5. Is there anarch in Japan
They don’t have “biblical” standard of morality!
No, you’re right, they don’t have anarchy, but all the countries you listed have a moral standard in their law system that’s derived form religion and those religions have stunning similarities with the practical morality of the scriptures (the “golden rule” is included the moral beliefs of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, the list goes on). Not absolutely but to some degree. And they are following those morals as opposed to addressing cultural problems from a secularist approach.
I am using anarchy in the sense of a culture denying that there is an authority outside of what “I think is right and wrong”. This was the result of the culture in Noah’s day and this is the ultimate goal of secularism – moral relativism. How do you know what one plus one is, how do you know how long a foot is, how do you know what color is green, standards! How does a culture determine what is morally right?
Do you think that we should just keep Christianity, and the morals thereof, out of the arena of politics?
AJ,
You ask two really good questions, both I think can help us understand what we are trying to convey. So lets start here with the questions you pose.
1. How does a culture determine what is morally right?
A: By a vote. Which we seem to be doing quite well on.
2. Do you think that we should just keep Christianity, and the morals thereof, out of the arena of politics?
A: No, my only problem is that Christianity should be only one voice of many not the voice! The other voices includes those who you call “moral relativists” because this is just as much their country as it ours.
97 percent of the black population voted for Obama.
Coinkidink?
I think not.
The only reason he was made president is because he offered those tax cuts for the majority of the population. Few people would turn down free hand-outs, right?
That is the ONLY reason he won. He is not the better man.
Let THAT go down in the history books.
And, no, it’s not Christianity that we are keeping out of our politics. It’s downright MORALS.
Thou shalt not kill (I think this applies to everyone; whether you are Christian or not): Huh. Well, we just kinda passed abortion…
Malcom said loudly. “That if violence in wrong in America it is wrong abroad….” You have said a mouthful as usual man but I must say that I understand and agree. It works both ways as you explained and probably more than we know.
I remember asking a white dude who served with me in the military the question: What would you do if your child came home and said that they were learning black history the whole year and one month out of the year US History. His reply was he would be upset and I said well that is what they tell my child but in the reverse order. He mouth was closed.
So it does work both ways as it relates to the vote.
[…] to allow the word of God to chisel his thoughts and actions. As I read his post today,You Only Voted For Obama Because He is Black!, I was again reminded of the genius wrapped in the vessel we know as Lionel Woods. When and if you […]
race race race race…..
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what truly separates us all — blacks, whites, asians, indians, hispanic, latinos, and so much more– is almost nothing.
scientifically, what truly differs between a caucasian and a negroid (in scientific terms), as all human beings share 99.9% of the same genetic coding, and the rest is not what defines our skin colour.
A white male could share more of the same DNA sequencing with a black male, than with another white male.
what separates us isnt so large after all,
simply a mind set that we cling to, are raised with, and pass on to others.
Why can’t we all simply let go of what has happened between us all, as human beings not just as religious believers (because that is what may divide us as well).
cant agree