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Archive for September 25th, 2008

Here is another thing I was talking with BLD about. I adhere to the Doctrines of Grace, but I also read my bible and I won’t let (or at least I will no longer let) theological presuppositions hinder my hermeneutic nor exposition of a text (that is why I posted the last post). So as you read the previous post here is another. I was reading through Peter and I came to this verse

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Now my Greek isn’t good enough to read this (hey Dr. Black I am in the verbs and stuff so I can read it I just don’t know what the heck it means LOL) or anything else for that matter and know what it means at least. So given the versions of the bible I have all of the translations pretty much translate this the same.

So my questions are:

1. What does escape mean?

2. Exactly what type of knowledge is this? Was this a knowing without faith? It is the same word used quite frequently to know for certain and sounds pretty salvific.

3. What does it mean to become entangled.

4. Finally why will it be worst than before? It seems like they were bad off, then they escaped “through the knowledge of Jesus Christ” and then they were entangled again, this second entanglement being worst that the first.

It seems if I am to take this verse seriously it is saying something that I disagree with. I appreciate the interaction.

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I was talking with BLD and Tyris the other day and today. I am again trying to reconcile what I have been taught with the Holy Scriptures (or at least what I thought I was taught). My question is this. I understand that God is Sovereign and His attributes consist of but are not limited to: Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Immutable and Eternal. But I want to know how are behavior, namely our faith move God.

Here is what I mean, given my current position. I would say that yes, we pray but our prayer doesn’t change the heart and mind of God because, well… umh… He is Sovereign.  Really what happens is that God changes us through prayer but because of the attributes of God (especially His Sovereignty) that means that rather I do it or not God will accomplish His will.

Throughout the Gospels, we see that Jesus says “by your faith” you were made whole. He says this quite frequently. He even says the reason the disciples couldn’t cast out the demons was because they didn’t have the “faith” to do it. Here is something even more shaky for me. In Exodus and Numbers God is going to destroy Israel a few times.

Here is the incident in Exodus 32:

And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’” And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”11 But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people……14 And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.

Now let me ask a serious question. Was God bluffing the Moses? Was he just making pretend to see how Moses would respond? Was God just saying to the Trinity “hey I am going to call Moses bluff to see If he really is my servant or out for himself”? Given the seriousness of the charge and Moses response this section of scripture makes me say that God was really going to kill them and that Moses really interceded, thus changing the heart of God.

Some of you may have already worked through this but I see too many instances in scripture where faith and prayer changed the predicaments of others. Peter was released from prison, the faith of the Centurion, the faith of the women with the issue of blood, Hezekiah’s extension and many other biblical examples.

So my question is this given God’s sovereignty how does prayer and faith effect change with God? Can God’s heart be changed and can He not move because of a lack of faith, or are things the way they are? So I am trying to fit a square into a circle, my theology doesn’t match up with what I read.

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