Brother Celucien over at Christ My Righteousness has posted this.
A New Proposal for Racial healing and Reconciliation © Christ, My Righteousness Ministries. Celucien Josheph
I use the black and white imagery below as representative expressions of different value systems and cultural preferences and as a symbol of “division” and “strife” in the Church. Below (and the above paragraph equally) are some suggestions, which I phrase ” a new proposal for racial reconciliation” for the members of the new kingdom of God in Christ , the new sphere where we all belong and are all incorporated in Christ Jesus, the King.
1. The person who is different from you is a bearer of God’s image.
2.Establish intentional, honest, and genuine relationships with people who are not like you—individuals of other race and ethnicity; and those who are of different social-economical backgrounds.
3.“Just make friendships that function at a mutual level where you are not the “giver” but both the giver and receiver” (from a blogger).
4.True reconciliation happens when we see the other as equally important and valuable as ourselves.
5.Remember everyone in the body of Christ has something equally unique and useful to offer to the building up of the kingdom of God.
6.The individual does not have to be like you, talk or act like you (in order) to appreciate him/her, his/her talents and service.
7.The white church needs to stop thinking that they are the true expression of Orthodox Christianity.
8.The white church needs to cease seeing herself as “the helper” but “partner” in the ministry for the growth of the kingdom of Christ.
9.The Black church needs to begin conceiving herself not as always “ the beneficiary” rather the “benefactor”
10.The Black church should not think of herself as always the “learners” rather the “giver”
11.Together the white and black churches complement each other in the ministry of the kingdom by helping and partnering, giving and receiving, learning and teaching.
12.Racial reconciliation is a ministry, an enduring process.
13.Be patient with each other.
14.Show Grace toward each other .
For the sake of the children of the kingdom
15.Black parents- Encourage and support your children to have non-black friends .
16.White parents- Encourage and support your children to have non-caucasian friends.
17.Black and White parents –Teach your children also to establish intentional and genuine relationships with people who are different from them. Not only do we need racial healing and reconciliation for ourselves, our children need it too. So we need to help our children not to be trapped in the same predicament.
18.We must prepare a new generation by passing on and leaving a strong legacy to them, a message of hope and unity through the bond of the Spirit who’s unifying us.
19.We need to instill in our children A love for racial harmony.
20.Because Jesus is the End of Ethocentricism and Racism.
This topic has been on my heart a lot lately. I am planning on talking with Alan about setting up a Chain Blog on the topic of “Race in the Church”
The next topic I would love to do as a chain blog would be Gender Issues in the Church.
Anyway, I appreciate your heart on this brother and hope everyone reading will continue the conversation.
Joe,
Here are a few things I wrote back in the day (a few months ago)
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/28/diverstiy-part-2-a-challenge-to-blacks-or-african-americans-if-you-prefer/
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/05/08/young-black-reformed-part-iiitheology-and-the-reformation-great-awakening-jim-crow/
Let me know what you think.
I’m pretty sure this is the most asinine post I’ve ever read in my life.
I am pretty sure this is the most asinine comment (only second to Stephen’s)
Why is my name being brought up in regards to asinine statements when I didn’t even say anything this time? What comment?
It was a joke Stephen to get you both going. LOL.
There is only one race, the human race made up of different ethnic groups descended from common parents.
In Adam under condemnation we are brothers and sisters descended from Noah’s sons.
In Christ we are brothers on a much different level.
I really get sick and tired of this racial healing and racial reconciliation, white church black church garbage that continues to divide us-continuing to use these segregating labels just continues the problem in my opinion.
There is no such thing as a black church or a white church, there is only Christ’s church made up of all the redeemed.
There are however black people who huddle together and separate themselves from others and white churches that separate themselves from others and Asian churches and the most asinine thing I have see yet, a church for seniors only!
Truly I am going to puke!
Why not just leave the blind people who continue to use “racial” rhetoric and politics behind and move forward to our high calling in Christ.
If the ignorant from all ethnic groups want to hold onto their prejudices, leave them behind, they have no control over your life or my life and what you and I can be and achieve unless we give it to them.
Sorry for the rant, but lets move forward please
BTW here is a challenge and series of questions:
As a so called white person living in America what type of reconciliation and healing am I supposed to be involved in?
Wouldn’t that be a specific sin issue in someone life?
Do all so called white people in America as a group need to reconcile with black people?
Think carefully before you answer.
Well, I’m not here to agree with somebody and disagree with somebody. I’m just here to learn the truth. Most of the time I agree with D. A. but this time I have to disagree with him because I, for one, found nothing erroneous in this post.
“Blackness” or “Whiteness” are theoretical concepts. When we mark the church as “black” (thus “the black church”) or “white” (hence “the white church”) we do not mean necessarily or in reality there’s an actual black or white church. These particular concepts have to do with various social, political and economical structures which define people of certain groups or race. You and I know there’s only one church: The Church of Christ. Nonetheless, we cannot ignore the reality that there’s still the perpetrating problem of segregated worship services among black and white brothers and sisters in Christ. We dare not to ignore our continual struggles to accept each other just as brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m afraid not we are not to undermine these important factors. We should strive wholeheartedly to make our individual effort to solve the problem. We need to join the Spirit as he moves in the hearts of men and women to unify us as “one people” of God. There is not a black church or white church. There’s not an Asian or Latino church. There’s the united church of Christ. But Unity is still the work of the Spirit as he empowers us to reconcile with God and each other through the cross of Christ.
Another similar problem is is the problem of “race.” Race is socially constructed to differentiate people from each other; and also to elevate one’s race in the expense of another. The Bible is indiscriminate about race. In fact, race does not exist. It is a system of thought, a series of conversations about those who are not like us.
i agree with ya, hutch. there’s no such creature called the black, asian, latino, or white church. these labels further divide us. but truthbetold, we know we huddle together in our separate groups because we identify most with people who can relate to us. i don’t think it’s necessarily borne out of prejudice as much as pragmatism.
should i fellowship in an assembly of korean, nigerian etc. Christians when i can’t speak the language and understand what is being shared? of course not. so i don’t see there being too much of an issue with us being comfortable with folk we have more in common with. i’m only speaking from the perspective of us meeting together corporately.
i’m black and my best friend is puerto rican and we fellowship just fine.
“1. The person who is different from you is a bearer of God’s image.”
Agreed
“2.Establish intentional, honest, and genuine relationships with people who are not like you—individuals of other race and ethnicity; and those who are of different social-economical backgrounds. ”
If they’re honest Americans who contribute to society, pay their taxes and speak properly (they have to at least try) then I don’t care what background my friends are from.
“3.“Just make friendships that function at a mutual level where you are not the “giver” but both the giver and receiver” (from a blogger).”
Cliché but probably good advice
“4.True reconciliation happens when we see the other as equally important and valuable as ourselves. ”
Agreed.
“5.Remember everyone in the body of Christ has something equally unique and useful to offer to the building up of the kingdom of God. ”
Agreed
“6.The individual does not have to be like you, talk or act like you (in order) to appreciate him/her, his/her talents and service. ”
Agreed
“7.The white church needs to stop thinking that they are the true expression of Orthodox Christianity. ”
I would have been happier with this one if it were worded like this: “Those in the white church who think that they are the true expression of Orthodox Christianity need to stop thinking that.” Otherwise you’re assuming that is how all/most those in the white church believe.
“8.The white church needs to cease seeing herself as “the helper” but “partner” in the ministry for the growth of the kingdom of Christ.”
The white church will stop seeing herself as “the helper” as soon as the black church stops seeing herself as “the victim”
“9.The Black church needs to begin conceiving herself not as always “the beneficiary” rather the “benefactor”
So you’re saying it’s okay for the black church to be the benefactors (helpers) but not the white church?
“10.The Black church should not think of herself as always the “learners” rather the “giver”
Isn’t there room for balance? Isn’t there time for the black church and the white church to both be at times learning and at times giving?
“11.Together the white and black churches complement each other in the ministry of the kingdom by helping and partnering, giving and receiving, learning and teaching.”
Agreed
“12.Racial reconciliation is a ministry, an enduring process.”
Racial reconciliation will always be a ministry and an enduring process as long as we keep dwelling on it and focusing on it instead of moving past it and transcending those problems.
“13.Be patient with each other.”
Agreed
“14.Show Grace toward each other .”
Agreed
“15.Black parents- Encourage and support your children to have non-black friends.”
I don’t think black parents should encourage their children to hang out with other kids just because of the color of their skin. There are a lot of non-black kids that may not be right for your children. If the non-black kids are worthy for your kids to hang out with, that’s fine. But don’t encourage them to have non-black friends, encourage them to have good friends.
“16.White parents- Encourage and support your children to have non-caucasian friends.”
There are a lot of non-caucasian kids I don’t want to encourage my children to hang out with. If I teach my children good and Biblical values, though, then they will make wise decisions as to who their friends should be.
“17.Black and White parents –Teach your children also to establish intentional and genuine relationships with people who are different from them. Not only do we need racial healing and reconciliation for ourselves, our children need it too. So we need to help our children not to be trapped in the same predicament.”
Racism in this country decreases more and more with each generation. To assume that our kids need racial healing is to assume they’ve been racially wounded. My kids have never been racially wounded. That day may or may not come, but if it does, I’m going to teach my kids to wipe away the tears and get over it. I’m going to teach them to forgive and move on. I’m not going to sit there and dwell on the pain and make victims out of my own kids.
“18.We must prepare a new generation by passing on and leaving a strong legacy to them, a message of hope and unity through the bond of the Spirit who’s unifying us.”
This has been going on for a long time now. Do you think it’s not? I don’t know about your parents, but that’s the kind of legacy my parents passed down to me. The same goes for all my church friends.
“19.We need to instill in our children A love for racial harmony.”
Agreed.
“20.Because Jesus is the End of Ethocentricism and Racism.”
Agreed
Hutch,
I wrote a long post but I guess the Spirit deleted it for me.
To make a long story short, many people haven’t got to where you and I are especially people like my grandmother who was born in the mid 20’s and had to walk to work, eat at a different restaraunt, get called nigger and whore, spit on, not allowed to vote until she was in her 40’s and so on. Many blacks looked at the social injustices of American and wanted nothing to do with the many Christians who professed to love God and hate niggers. Most feel that the “white” church today consistently bury thier heads and close their eyes to what they feel is systemized racism. Rather you agree or not some of the concers are genuine. Should this cause divides? No but it is the same struggle many gentiles had with Jews and vice versa.
To answer your questions:
1. I don’t know much about healing that would be a case by case but I work in Corporate America and if you hear some of things about black women loving welfare and most black man being thugs and “how did you make it out, if you can do it all the other blacks can to”. How “affirmative action is racism” and other such conversations. We can start by removing stereotypes and praying for genuine relationships with people who like different music, different clothing styles, different hobbies and different cultural arts.
2. That could be and it could be ignorance. Most people gravitate to people who look, act and talk like them and that is even in Christiandom. I know many people black and white who would rather kick it with a pagan of the same race than a brother or sister in the Lord.
3. All people need to reconcile with all people.
D.A.
Thanks for your constructive response. But I must clarify the following comments:
“7.The white church needs to stop thinking that they are the true expression of Orthodox Christianity. ”
I would have been happier with this one if it were worded like this: “Those in the white church who think that they are the true expression of Orthodox Christianity need to stop thinking that.” Otherwise you’re assuming that is how all/most those in the white church believe.
“8.The white church needs to cease seeing herself as “the helper” but “partner” in the ministry for the growth of the kingdom of Christ.”
The white church will stop seeing herself as “the helper” as soon as the black church stops seeing herself as “the victim”
Please see my previous comment for 7 and 8.
Let me add a few words here. Black and White christians do not have a pleasant history in this country. One of the problems with your comment in # 7 is most of the time the “helper” assumes control and superiority. The church cannot function as a secular entity and should not wear the mask. Christians are “partners” in the ministry. We are not a capitalist entity.
“9.The Black church needs to begin conceiving herself not as always “the beneficiary” rather the “benefactor”
So you’re saying it’s okay for the black church to be the benefactors (helpers) but not the white church?
“10.The Black church should not think of herself as always the “learners” rather the “giver”
Isn’t there room for balance? Isn’t there time for the black church and the white church to both be at times learning and at times giving?
For points 9 and 10-
Please read # 11, a summary statement of points 9 and 10. “Together the white and black churches complement each other in the ministry of the kingdom by helping and partnering, giving and receiving, learning and teaching.”
What happens is that the Black church has not always assumed the leadership role. We have not be fully engaged in missionary endeavors nationally and internationally. So we need to have a global missionary vision by providing spiritual and physical food to those in need both in the US and Overseas.
What I am advocating here is a new leadership dimension for Black churches—one that is mission-minded, global and planetary.
“15.Black parents- Encourage and support your children to have non-black friends.”
I don’t think black parents should encourage their children to hang out with other kids just because of the color of their skin. There are a lot of non-black kids that may not be right for your children. If the non-black kids are worthy for your kids to hang out with, that’s fine. But don’t encourage them to have non-black friends, encourage them to have good friends.
“16.White parents- Encourage and support your children to have non-caucasian friends.”
There are a lot of non-caucasian kids I don’t want to encourage my children to hang out with. If I teach my children good and Biblical values, though, then they will make wise decisions as to who their friends should be.
“17.Black and White parents –Teach your children also to establish intentional and genuine relationships with people who are different from them. Not only do we need racial healing and reconciliation for ourselves, our children need it too. So we need to help our children not to be trapped in the same predicament.”
Racism in this country decreases more and more with each generation. To assume that our kids need racial healing is to assume they’ve been racially wounded. My kids have never been racially wounded. That day may or may not come, but if it does, I’m going to teach my kids to wipe away the tears and get over it. I’m going to teach them to forgive and move on. I’m not going to sit there and dwell on the pain and make victims out of my own kids.
“18.We must prepare a new generation by passing on and leaving a strong legacy to them, a message of hope and unity through the bond of the Spirit who’s unifying us.”
This has been going on for a long time now. Do you think it’s not? I don’t know about your parents, but that’s the kind of legacy my parents passed down to me. The same goes for all my church friends.
For points # 15-18
You need to read the latter part of my first paragraph, in which I advocated the new ethics of the kingdom that constitutes a new citizenry.
“Those who belong to the new kingdom ushered by Christ are to follow the ethics set by the King for its citizens. Unity is the goal of the kingdom, diversity comes only in second. We are not called to pursue “diversity” but “unity.” For diversity presupposes the “make-up” and inclusion of the church. Unity is strongly emphasized in the ethics of the Kingdom. Having a “unified body” should be the ardent quest of every member of the kingdom.”
Why should I be afraid as a parent to let my two boys befriend with people of different racial and ethnic make up, if we are all to follow the new kingdom ethics?
Just as their parents, the children belong to the new sphere that in Christ Jesus.
In fact, Lionel calls it “A better covenant.” That is the nature of the new kingdom and what constitutes its (various) members.
Thanks Lionel for this historic clarity. I should add the following statement:
One of the big problems confronting the church today is that some of us continue to pretend the problem of race and racism are no longer issues to deal with in the church and in the American society.
Celucien, racism is a problem in the church, but if you think it is the biggest problem the church or this country faces then you’re an idiot. We have problems that far outweigh racism and those deserve our time and resources. But There isn’t a lot of racism in this country as a whole.
I remember back in he 90’s I kept hearing in the news about black churches that were burning down all over the country. There was outrage in the black community and the press was eating it up like hotcakes on a saturday morning. Why, after all these years, couldn’t whitey just accept blacks as part of their world? Peter Jennings was going to run a special on Racism but it got cancelled when they realized during their research that more white churches were burning down than black churches. So no, it wasn’t racism like that blacks were claiming. Churches just burn down.
In 1997, at Duke University, a black doll was found hanging by a noose from a tree at the precise spot where the Black Student Alliance was to be holding a rally against racism. Two black students later admitted they were the culprits and were immediately praised for bringing attention to the problem of racism on campus. Indeed, four years later the president of Duke gave a baccalaureate address nostalgically describing the hoax as a “protest” against racism. Next stop: the Nobel Peace Prize.
In 2003, vile racial epithets were scrawled on the dorm room doors at Ole Miss, producing mass protests and a “Say No to Racism” march. And then it turned out the graffiti had been written by black students, against whom no charges were brought. A “Say Yes to Racism” rally at Ole Miss was later canceled due to lack of interest.
In 2005, obscenity-laced racist and anti-Semitic messages appeared on dormitory walls at the College of Wooster in Ohio. The fliers were instantly blamed on “typical white males,” even though all the letter I’s in the epithets were dotted with little hearts. Breadcrumbs left by the culprits included the message “Vote Goldwater” among the obscenities. The matter was dropped and flushed down the memory hole when the perpetrators turned out to be a group of leftist students led by a black studies major.
The one real example of racism on a college campus in recent memory was perpetrated against white men of the Duke lacrosse team. As that injustice was being perpetrated, gender and ethnic professors at Duke kept droning on about the “racism and sexism” students “live with every day” — as the professors put it in an open letter that falsely presumed the players were guilty of rape. We don’t expect a rally against the prejudiced professors, but an apology might be nice.
Playing the game of “He Who Is Offended First Wins,” Americans seek status not by claiming to be rich or of royal lineage, but by portraying themselves as victims. In one recent hoax hate crime, a white woman professor at Claremont McKenna College said her car had been vandalized with racist and anti-Semitic graffiti, with the words “Shut Up!” spray-painted on the hood of her car. She was not black or Jewish, but had recently converted to Judaism and spoke out against racism. So she was a victim! After the vandalism of her car, she promptly became Queen for a Day. Far from “silenced,” this anonymous mountebank was given a national microphone to bore us with her race-gender-culture theories. The campus was shut down for a day for anti-racism rallies in the charlatan’s honor. Then eyewitnesses identified her as the one who had spray-painted her own car, and the pity party was over.
I guess what I’m saying is, it seems like every time it rains after a minority washes his car they say it’s a white dirty trick. I don’t know any white people that are racist. So I guess if you’re seeing racism, it’s in your own community. Because I don’t see it in mine.
I’ve been holding off on commenting (as I wanted to a couple months ago) as originally your blog was titled “black & reformed ministries” and then you changed it to “a better covenant” so I didn’t really feel led to say anything, now that you’ve posted this….I can’t not say something.
First, Lionnel you said:
“Racial reconciliation does not mean, by any means, the total abandonment of one’s culture and values or the “let go” of one’s distinction (s) and preferences.”
However, I think this is actually a major part of the continuation for stereotypes. Why would we cling to a culture at all if we are clinging to Christ….the way He lives, the way He showed us….what importance does it bring? Does God say, continue on practicing your cultural rituals and making identities for yourselves that are based on the color of your skin? We are essentially all Gentiles aren’t we?
Let me explain, I am 1/4 Swedish, !/2 American Samoan & 1/8 Italian & 1/8 German. When you look @ my face however you only see the 1/2 American Samoan. My mother is a woman with light skin, often referred to as caucasian, my grandparents, aunts, uncles and even my own brother & sister are light as well. I never met my dad, and I actually think in this regard that it’s a blessing, as he’s 100% American Samoan. I’ve experienced racism within my own family, and stereotypes were placed upon me very early on. I was disregarded by my own race on many accounts, because I was a half breed. My mother married my brother & sisters father and he also has skin that is light, so I stuck out like a sore thumb. Unbeknownst to me, when they divorced and the only father I ever knew left the home…..I realized @ the age of 7 I didn’t look like the rest of my family.
Even further, I lived in a very poor area in Seattle, WA that was primarily individuals with dark skin, often referred to now as african americans..(however I prefer to eliviate such nonsensical terms especially because they are derived from the world). I was often called names, beaten up and told over and over again that I thought I was prettier and better because I had straight hair. Even further that I talked “white”, whatever that means? This is around 6 or 7, up until I was about 8. The first 5 years of my life we lived in Germany, so that was pretty impactful, my memories are scarce, but the overall feeling and impression that I left that country with was that color didn’t matter, I spoke flewent German (not today) and was again surrounded by 99% light skin people as well…..
I’m trying to give you a little background, because I think it’s important and I know that God taught me so many things about this topic just by being born into 2 different color schemes. We moved from the city to a rural farm area south of Seattle, called Pacific, population 1,500. This area was primarily filled with people with light skin….there were so many different stereotypes assumed of me simply because my skin was darker then everyone elses. They’d not seen or met anyone like them…which is identical to the scenario above. It was assumed that I was probably in a “gang” or that I listened to rap music and the reverse happend, I wasn’t beat up, just outcasted in a lot of ways (especially because I loved alternative, grunge rock music passionately)…..different. Which has always been weird to me, so there’s white music? There’s black music? interesting……Why can’t we like what we like, and not make it a racial thing?
That’s not to say that I never made any good friends, some light skinned, some latino, some asian, some dark…but I was always the “different one” because my idenity was NOT wrapped up in my race. Which enabled me to see the big picture….primarily because I was always having to explain what I was and what that didn’t mean racially.
The question that I’m asked most, by non-believers and by followers of Christ is this: “What are you?” “What is your nationality?” I never like this question, because I know that it carries a lot of baggage….meaning, whomever is asking is trying to put me into a category or schemata to make me make sense in their mind. What kind of music I’d like, how I’d talk, how I’m going to be sensitive about certain “topics” etc. etc.
As I continued walking through life with the face that is mine, rich, poor, dark, light, mature, unmature…continually ask me this one question. Why? Do you think it has anything to do with how much pride is within the human heart, or intertwined in one’s color? We continually are trying to make homes and groups and separate days to celebrate our diversity….within the world, in missions and within our own churches. This frustrates me, and has been a huge stumbling block.
I meet people who are activists if you will, white power, black power, latin pride, etc. etc. I’m not saying that there hasn’t been hate since the beginning and most people gravitate towards people like them….it’s comfortable, it’s easier, bla bla bla.
Should I be reconciled to myself Lionnel? Considering 1/2 of me is one color and the other 1/2 of me is another? Or do I embody what God has shown us throughout his entire word. Intermixed marriages, intermixed cultures….He is the Truth, the Life and the Way. These things are not what we should be focused on or clinging to. If they know us by our love for one another, but you’re a black and reformed christian….isn’t that confusing to someone right off the bat? You’re supposed to be hidden in Christ, putting on the new not the old wine skin. Why not abandon your culture (or your indentity as a black man), when he calls us to lay down our lives? Your culture is a piece of that life that He doesn’t want anyone identifying oneself with. You’re read the new testament, probably a lot more than I have and you could probably quote scripture to me hand over foot…..but knowing Christ and His love for us, being washed clean for me has been a beautiful and freeing thing. I am no longer concerned with what people think, or how they want to stereotype me…I am a child of God, not white, not black, not american samoan…that’s my phyical body, our spirits are all the same, we are the human race, why concern ourselves with anything more?
To keep our eyes on Christ, to continually seek His face is what I’m called to do, so that I can love people unconditionally and not to try to identify or make sense out of this outwardly to then communicate to their hearts the love of God, the sin that lives within us all. I think this topic, the idea of reconcilliation should be about us being reconciled to Christ continually and that His church would be one body, like-minded and focused on saving people from themselves who are living in Bondage, living in Death. What the world often sees in those who call themselves “christian” is division amongst our body, and hypocrisy (speaking worldly terms, concerning ourselves with worldly issues and seeking to reform his church through these mechanisms).
I feel like often I can relate to both sides, hypothetically, but because I am both I see the weakness in our human heart on both sides of the fence, and I’ll tell you God has shown me a lot just by getting up everyday and walking out the door…I’m going to run into someone who doesn’t look like me, who doesn’t talk like me..but you know what we have in common? SIN…..I can go deep with any color, because that’s what I’m focused on. We can relate to everyone in the church and outside of the church, because we’ve all been bought at a heavy price, and that we did not deserve. I hope to continue a dialogue with you, and I tried really hard to paint a clear picture of my point. To say, “encourage your white children to hang out with non-white children” is really not good advice. Your children will learn by example, if you engage with people of every color you’ve already done what you’ve described. If you primarily hang out with one race of people, its like saying do as a I say not as I do. We are the examples to our children… When my daughter asks me why my skin color is darker than hers, I tell her that that’s the way God made me, he made each of us unique and special and there’s no one like me or you. Color is irrelevant, but the world is pretty preoccupied with reconciling us….seems bizarre that we’ve jumped on that bandwagon, because I distinctly remember God saying we’re to be foreigners in this world. What does that mean to you?
Heather,
I first can’t ever feel what you experienced, so I can’t speak for you however, I can speak for me.
There are things I like and dislike, this could be to exposure, upbringing or even DNA who knows. So lets get into it.
What does it look like to lose ones culture. Is it even possible? As a matter of fact I would even go as far to say that it would be unbiblical to do such a thing. God in His infinite wisdom created ethnicities and John says “every nation, tongue and tribe”. When we become Christians how then shall we live?
For example. What should a Chinese Christian let go and what should they embrace. However you look at it you will adopt some cultural norm. Either it is American (which is Eurocentric) or something else. What as a black man should I let go. My music taste, my movie taste, the way I dress, the way I talk, whom I am attracted to? What you say sounds good in theory but to let go of something it means to embrace something else. To behave like a Christian means what culturally? How do Christians act other than the imperatives of the “one anothers”. Lets travel back to the 1st Century the Ephesians culturally looks and behaves a certain way. They eat certain food dress a certain way, maybe even like different types of arts and crafts.
Paul says something quite clearly “to the Jews I became a Jew” as a matter of fact missiology teaches us to shed our “cultural” and embrace to the culture we are trying to reach. The inner city has a culture that God has placed them in, those things that are sinful are to go. Any type of ethnocentricity is sinful at all. My race isn’t something that should seperate us, it should be something celebrated (race/culture/ethnicity). It should bring us in awe of God not something that should be ignored as if doesn’t exist. God gave us this and we are to put on love which unites us in perfect unity.
So again, you would have to explain to me practically what that looks like? I do believe if those things are held above the cross they can cause a hinderance in biblical relationships; however, to shed them in totality would be impossible.
D. A,
Oh man, you never cease to amaze me. Don’t forget about the noose found at Columbia University last year. That had all the earmarks of a hoax as well and they could never confirm it wasn’t. I’ll be shocked by a noose appearing on a college campus the day an actual racist does it. Could Columbia at least produce one student or professor who supports racism before holding another “rally against racism”? Every concrete example of the racism allegedly sweeping the nation’s campuses keeps turning out to be a fraud. Far from “institutional racism,” there is “institutional racial hoaxism” run amok in this country. Will anyone rally against that? Haha yeah right.
Anyway, I don’t believe racism is that big of a deal in this country. Then again, I do know a lot of black people that are voting for Obama for no other reason than the fact that he is black. If white people voted for a white candidate for no other reason then his skin color that would be racist, right? So maybe we’re wrong and racism is a bigger problem than we think it is.
Lionel-
I will not go into too much detail regarding my background and experiences, but I will mention a few things: I am of Scottish Canadian descent, most people of Scottish descent who live in Canada go there by being placed on boats by the British in the mid 1600’s during the time of the British program of ethnic cleansing of the Highlands. After the British won a decisive battle known as the battle of Culloden, they forcibly took Scottish men’s wives from them and gave them to British officers in order to “breed the unruly race into extinction”. They took our ancestor’s lands from them, disarmed them, outlawed their national costume and music and shipped a lot of them off to Canada to get rid of them. That is way an area along the coast of Canada is named Nova Scotia “New Scotland”.
My parents immigrated to the United States in the early 1960’s. I was born a US citizen, but my brother and I are the only born US citizens in our family.
Initially we grew up in an area and attended a school where we were the minority “color”. Remember this was in the early 1970’s with the big hair, I went to school with little kids whose hair was as wide as they were tall! Grin. The other day I saw a young man down the road from us who had a similar hairstyle and I thought back to my early school years and said to myself, things always come back around full circle.
My parents always taught us to be color blind but I soon learned that many other parents at that time did not as I soon met “bigots” of all shades of color.
Now I know that the things that happened to my ancestors happen a long time ago and that what has happened here in America leaves fresher wounds. My earlier comments did not mean to marginalize or excuse the government mandated institutional racism and even worse the forcible enslavement of people in the recent past.
Their will always be ignorant and fearful people in our society who will not love their neighbor as they love themselves.
But I was talking about the church. I was talking about those who profess to be in Christ from all ethnic groups.
Regardless of what has happened to us in the past, how are we to treat anyone that we happen to meet. We are to treat them like our neighbor, remember no asking who my neighbor is! We are to treat everyone the way we want to be treated. Period. We are not to approach anyone with preconceived ideas about people we are to love everyone and our brothers and sisters in Christ even more so.
We have been given a ministry of reconciliation for sure, but we better not redefine God’s Word to suit a political agenda or a false social gospel. The ministry of reconciliation we are to be about as new creations in Christ is to bring the gospel to folks so that they can be reconciled to God.
Now back to the thrust of my original questions:
If a brother or sister has offended you and you feel personal reconciliation is needed, then by all means seek that out.
But the solution for this issue within the church is really very simple if we would all just approach everyone with the attitude to love them the way we love ourselves. I’m willing to scratch the surface of this command and put it into practice. Anyone else on board?
Let’s move forward and start doing this today.
I leave what is behind in the past and press on to my high calling in Christ.
Lets all encourage each other along to the finish line. See ya at the top.
D. A. you typed:
“If they’re honest Americans who contribute to society, pay their taxes and speak properly (they have to at least try) then I don’t care what background my friends are from.”
(BLD) Would you mind being a little more specific as to what you mean by “contribute to society” and “speak properly”? I have an idea but I don’t want to assume.
By the way, one of the major dams that is preventing the water of racism from flowing freely is “political correctness”. Otherwise, racism would not be so subliminal as to cause people like you and Steven to believe that it is no longer a major issue both in the church and in this country.
D. A. you typed:
“Celucien, racism is a problem in the church, but if you think it is the biggest problem the church or this country faces then you’re an idiot.”
(BLD) Why would Celucien be an idiot if he thought this? Why wouldn’t he simply be wrong or misinformed? Why would you use such an inflammatory and insulting term simply over a disagreement? Could the fact that you haven’t experienced racism or any disadvantages because of it, be at the heart of your vitriol?
Lionel-
You said: All people need to reconcile with all people.
reconcile=to cause to be friendly and harmonious again.
I want to go on the record and state that if anyone feels that I have done something to disrupt the harmony or if I have personally offended you or attempted to limit your opportunity based on your skin color or said something you would consdier to be racist, that you are free to bring that to my attention.
I try my best to live a lifestyle of repentance when confronted with sin.
This is an individual, case by case issue of personal repentance.
If your brother offends thee bring it to his attention.
Right?
Hutch,
It is a case by case in most cases but what we see in America is very corporate do you agree with that? In reference to the weekly gathering of the saints.
Hi Heather,
Righter would like to introduce herself to you and requests that you please provide the methodologies you used to arrive at the following quantitative determination:
Let me explain, I am 1/4 Swedish, !/2 American Samoan & 1/8 Italian & 1/8 German. When you look @ my face however you only see the 1/2 American Samoan
Stephen,
Doesn’t racism seem to follow the democrat party in particular? You brought up the fact that a lot of black people are voting for Obama for no other reason than the fact that he is black. I saw an article earlier (check it out at http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93AIV882&show_article=1) that says, ” More than a third of all white Democrats and independents—voters Obama can’t win the White House without—agreed with at least one negative adjective about blacks, according to the survey, and they are significantly less likely to vote for Obama than those who don’t have such views.”
I mean, dang. So white democrats won’t vote for the man because of his race. But blacks won’t vote for him for any other reason. It reminds me of the anti-Muslim fliers that were put out on the George Washington University campus just last year — by leftists, including a member of “Iraq Veterans Against War.” When it was thought the leaflets were from the conservative group Young Americans For Freedom, the dean called for the expulsion of the culprits and the university demanded that YAF officers sign a statement disavowing “hate speech.” But when it turned out leftists had distributed the fliers, the matter was dropped faster than Obama dropped Reverend Wright after the country first realized Obama had been attending a racist church for the last 20 years. Sheesh, democrats, who do you think you’re fooling?
Lionel-
I do not agree that racism in America is institutional any longer as institutional would mean that the “institution” IE: Government and Business has an official policy of limiting people’s opportunities by skin color. There are Federal and State laws in place that guarantee equal access and equal opportunity for all people.
Does racism still exist? Yes it does. It exists in the poisoned minds and hearts of individuals. That is true here and in all other countries.
But now if someone feels that they have been a victim of racism in the job market, they have legal recourse.
Racism and hatred in the hearts and minds of individuals will always be with us, it is a condition of fallen humanity.
So we should approach people without any preconceived ideas about what they think about the subject and judge them based solely on our experiences with them.
If we feel that we can prove that we have been discriminated against based on skin color in the job market we can seek legal remedy.
If we encounter someone in everyday life whom we think is a bigot, we pray for those who despitefully use us and pray for God to bless them and save them if they are without Christ.
If a brother or sister in Christ has offended us we take the matter to them as laid out in the scriptures.
I really do not think I am walking around with rose color sunglasses. Things are better and getting better on this issue.
The hope is in the future, most of the GI generation, Silent Generation and older Baby Boomers had way too much up close and personal experience with the evils of slavery and segregationism. But the younger Baby Boomers, Generation X and the Y Generation/Millennials are making great strides in this area.
Let me walk you down my street, it is a short street of 9 homes: On my side of the street: house 1) Old white couple 2) Middle aged white man 3) very nice 40 year old white couple Mike & Stacy Hutchison 4) married couple Black male, White Female (late 30’s) 5) Black married couple. Other side of the street: house 1) Hispanic couple 2) Hispanic Couple 3) Indian Couple from India 4) Indian Couple from India.
We get along with all of our neighbors and look out for them and vice versa.
I’m moving forward, that is all I can do and encourage others to do the same.
I think discussion has limited value, dwelling on the past is disastrous and walking the walk is paramount.
What about the church? I do not believe that it is a good use of time and energy to even attempt to reform the traditional church. Racism dies off more and more each year.
The answer is to plant biblical churches with a, ethnically diverse core group who have already dealt with these issues and who really have a vision for the church to represent the diversity of God’s Kingdom. I also believe the preeminence of the priesthood of the believer that supersedes exemplary eldership is vital.
Bro. Hutch,
It bothers me that I am actually going to have to disagree with you as you’ve usually had a larger scope of thinking in your comments.
If you really believe that racism is no longer institutional, then can you please explain:
1. The inner city school systems across the country?
2. Or how about the police departments?
3. Or how about the financial institutions? (Do you really believe the government would be offering billions to bail out homes lost mainly by Black people? Please!)
And legal recourse? How many Black families have the resources to pay some lawyer for an outcome that is unlikely to be in their favor? And please don’t tell me about free legal assistance. There are some brothers in jail/prison right now who would love to tell you where you can put your free legal aid!
It is always amazing to me, even though it shouldn’t be, how an individual who has no worries about being racially discriminated against, can really see things the way some of you do.
Hutch, you will never be pulled over for driving a “nice” car. I have and will again. You will never be stopped for being in a “nice” neighborhood in any car. I have and will again. You will never be turned down for a job simply because you have an “intimidating” (see Black face) look. You will never be presumed guilty until proven innocent. You will never be the first person looked at when something valuable comes up missing. You will never be the first person everyone wants to question when a Black celebrity gets into trouble or is running for some political office. You can vote for a white candidate without people presuming that it is the only reason you have for doing so. Maybe your glasses aren’t rose colored. Maybe they’re broken.
I’m not asking you to feel sorry for me or others. I’m not asking you to do anything about what is happening to us that doesn’t affect you. I’m asking you to be real about the situation. Just because people, in general, no longer announce their hatred of others doesn’t mean that they no longer have the hatred. I’ll tell you the same thing I told D.A. and I’ll add a little something:
In this country, one of the dams that it stopping the free flow of racism is “political correctness”. Political correctness is a dam that supports another dam which is “capitalism”, which needs the Black dollar. And Hutch I have no doubt that, at least in the case of political correctness, some are prevented from saying what is truly in their hearts when it comes to the subject of racial injustices:
“Slavery is over and Jim Crow is over. So you ni**ers just need to quit complaining!”
Please think about it.
Righter says “write on”…
Let me add a few words below (Please read Bros. Hutch’s and Lawrence’s comments before reading this one). For it is in the context of their concerns I wrote the following paragraph:
It’s still not justifiable to envision a future-oriented community when there are still existing ruptured relationships among us that need to be cured. We cannot move forward as a people under the pretentious ideology that racism is over. Hence, we need to move on with our lives. Today, many people contend that, we are in a “postracial and segregated” society. Great! Nonetheless, the official apparatus might have been eradicated, but the socio-political and cultural-economical bonds instituted by our preceding racist society and its unwavering promulgation still hang with some alternation, thus are significant concerns for the modern man.
We cannot envision a utopian society where we imagine that the race problem is resolved and obsolete in American soil and the new covenant community (the church). That unity is triumphed, and integration is justified and consummated. That everybody is equally treated and weighted on the same scale. The reality is that the effects of racism and our past segregated system are still impacting the community that has been oppressed. Of course, nobody wants to repeat the past and dwell in it; nonetheless, to move beyond yesterday we need to solve its unresolved memory in the present. It was William Faulkner, one of our own great poets, who once said, “the past is never dead; it is not even past.” There can be no racial harmony and justice without memory—without remembering the pain of the past and its subsequent effects on living individuals and a community corporately. If the church desires unity among all members of her body, we as the incorporated community in Christ need to learn to listen to each other and bear each other’s burden. Unity is come to its fruition in the community of white and black sisters in Christ in America. (At least, that is my observation).
Moreover, it is inexcusable to claim that our “sinful nature” is the dominant prevention for furthering and ameliorating broken relationships among us—black and white brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not to close our eyes on the issue of racial disunity in our midst; as some allegedly maintain it is passé. America is still two societies, a dialectical culture, where everything is either black or white. Race in American society and in the church respectively is still an existential matter.
We must first acknowledge that racism is a reality, an existential crisis among us. Foremost, it is a theological problem; thus needs to be treated theologically. Although we cannot undermine its many effects (relational, behavioral, anthropological, psychological, etc). So we need to talk about it. Don’t we? Desiring racial harmony and reconciliation will accomplish very little unless we learn to listen to the other person, and learn to have serious conversations on racism and address its continual effects on the life of the church.
For many, racism might be a conscious and unconscious matter. Regardless, we must address the problem christianly and understandingly. That we pursue each other at all cost, in order that we might be healed and restored into the same fellowship, which we were created for in Christ Jesus. Must we engage each other in (racial) dialogue? Emphatically I consent. For silence and color blindness will not cure the profound problem of racism. So there’s an urgent need for all of us to take a step forward to bring an effective remedy to this significant concern. By not engaging the problem of racism or considering it altogether as both “individually” and “ecclesiologic ally,” we will therefore defer unity in the body of Christ, and put at rest racial harmony. In other words, “There can be no unity without dialogue, without ending the enduring silence on racism. There can be no reconciliation without honest and frank conversation.”
May God give us a heart like his.
Blessings,
Celucien
I meant to write “Unity is to be realized in the community of white and black sisters in Christ in America when we acknowlege what is at stake; that is our communion and fellowship with each other”. (At least, that is my observation).
insead of
“Unity is come to its fruition in the community of white and black sisters in Christ in America. (At least, that is my observation)”
Bro. Lawrence D.-
I have shared in my posts on this issue regarding the evils that were perpetrated against my ethnic group in the past by the Brittish. There are still people in Scotland and Ireland that hate the British for things done to us hundreds of years ago. I mentioned that what has happened to your ethnic group here in America obviously leaves fresher wounds.
“Now I know that the things that happened to my ancestors happen a long time ago and that what has happened here in America leaves fresher wounds. My earlier comments did not mean to marginalize or excuse the government mandated institutional racism and even worse the forcible enslavement of people in the recent past.”
I have mentioned reconciliation is due where reconciliation is due. My family did not arrive her in America until the 1960’s. My family has never owned slaves. I was not born until 1969. I was raised to be color blind and to respect all people as having equal value and worth.
“If a brother or sister has offended you and you feel personal reconciliation is needed, then by all means seek that out.”
“reconcile = to cause to be friendly and harmonious again.”
“I want to go on the record and state that if anyone feels that I have done something to disrupt the harmony or if I have personally offended you or attempted to limit your opportunity based on your skin color or said something you would consdier to be racist, that you are free to bring that to my attention.”
“I try my best to live a lifestyle of repentance when confronted with sin.”
“This is an individual, case by case issue of personal repentance”
I never said that racism does not exist in the world or in America.
“Their will always be ignorant and fearful people in our society who will not love their neighbor as they love themselves.”
“I do not agree that racism in America is institutional any longer as institutional would mean that the “institution” IE: Government and Business has an official policy of limiting people’s opportunities by skin color. There are Federal and State laws in place that guarantee equal access and equal opportunity for all people.”
“Does racism still exist? Yes it does. It exists in the poisoned minds and hearts of individuals. That is true here and in all other countries.”
“Racism and hatred in the hearts and minds of individuals will always be with us, it is a condition of fallen humanity.”
I said the hope is in the future. I am not a part of the problem, I am part of the solution. I do not need to be racially reconciled to anyone as I am not a racist and have never been a racist. Not everyone will want to or be able to move on to higher ground, but the future looks good. Some people on both sides of the aisle are still blinded by anger, fear and hatred and unfortunately people on both sides of the issue will hold their children back by teaching their children to do the same.
“The hope is in the future, most of the GI generation, Silent Generation and older Baby Boomers had way too much up close and personal experience with the evils of slavery and segregationism. But the younger Baby Boomers, Generation X and the Y Generation/Millennials are making great strides in this area.”
“I’m moving forward, that is all I can do and encourage others to do the same.”
“I think discussion has limited value, dwelling on the past is disastrous and walking the walk is paramount.”
My glasses are not broken, but anger may be blinding you. Only you and God know if that is true.
Brother, believe it or not, I love you and consider you an equal peer. Do you feel the same?
Bro. Hutch,
For the record, I am not angry at you or anyone else.
Here’s my brief resume: Yesterday I turned 33. I have been happily married to a wonderful, beautiful Black woman for 9 years. She and I have 4 wonderful, smart and healthy children, together. No baby mamas. No baby daddies. I have been on the same job for 10 years. Last year I made a very nice sum, most of which I got to keep due to the fact that I pay low taxes. I am current on every account I have. I have medical, dental, and vision coverage. I have a retirement plan with my job. Racism, as terrible as it may be, is no match for Almighty God! He alone is the source of my life!
But having said that Hutch:
I am extremely annoyed at the fact that what you and others are basically advocating is a “get over it” mentality and that without regard for the fact that what we should “get over” continues to be an issue in the community with which I identify. I do indeed consider you an equal human being. However, we are only peers in the areas where we are allowed to be. You don’t seem to recognize this. Let’s look at your statements:
(Hutch) “I do not agree that racism in America is institutional any longer as institutional would mean that the “institution” IE: Government and Business has an official policy of limiting people’s opportunities by skin color. There are Federal and State laws in place that guarantee equal access and equal opportunity for all people.”
(BLD) Do you see how you go out of your way to redefine “institutional” as “official policy” (which boils down to public admission) in order to profess with a straight face that it no longer exist? And laws in and of themselves guarantee nothing. The laws must not only be obeyed but also enforced. Then the system must work entirely in order to ensure that the disadvantaged are made whole. If the laws were as effective as you seem to believe them to be, then how do you explain what remains of unequal opportunity. This is why I say that your glasses are broken. This is naivety at it’s worst.
Hutch again, if you believe that institutional racism no longer exist, then can you explain the situations I asked about? Don’t just pass me off as “another angry Black man” so that you can avoid dealing with the questions. Reprinting your earlier post does nothing to assist in this situation. If you are not going to deal with it, then I will consider you dishonest in your desire to see reconcilitation, no matter how sincerely you profess otherwise. Then you typed this:
(Hutch) “Does racism still exist? Yes it does. It exists in the poisoned minds and hearts of individuals. That is true here and in all other countries.”
(BLD) Hutch, what happens when these very people are in charge of these “institutions”? Wouldn’t it follow that their racism would play into how they ran them? Man you have got to be kidding me if you think otherwise. Politics, business, higher education. These people who have racism in their hearts run these institutions and are supported by other people who have racism in their hearts. But people like you sit back and say that because the President, CEO, or Chancellor hasn’t hung a “NO Ni**as Allowed” sign outfront, then racism on the “institutional” level no longer exist.
Now you accused me of being angry which I am not. But I accuse you of having the mentality that you have because these problems do not come close enough to your front door. The problem is that many people in my community actually have to sleep with these problems. Where’s your compassion for them? Maybe like institutional racism, it also doesn’t exist.
Once again you have wrongly accused me of saying racism does not exist, and you have accused me of being blinded with broken glasses.
I merely asked you if anger may be blinding you.
The answers to your questions are that individuals perpetrate acts of racism that is not sanctioned by current law or policy of any corporation, government, law enforcement agency or school district.
Again you have spoken rightly that laws do not eliminate crime, people still steal, people still kill, people still cheat on their taxes and some individuals are racists, but not the majority of people.
You have rightly spoken that God is in absolute control of what you are able to achieve.
I applaud your accomplishments that you have mentioned, but wonder why you felt the need to tell me such things.
Did you think I was making assumptions about who you are?
Did you think I thought you were irresponsible?
You have been able to deduce from my posts that I am not compassionate towards people who are treated badly?
How can you know that?
How can you know what troubles and difficulties I have had to overcome?
If you knew my background you would know that what I have experienced gives me great compassion for people when they are mistreated.
The most compassionate thing I can do for anyone is to encourage them to do what you are doing-trust God to be bigger than circumstances, and live my life treating everyone the way I want to be treated.
The worst thing I could do for someone is to encourage them to be bitter and to expect to be mistreated and to expect to not be able to achieve.
I restated my earlier posts as you obviously are not seeing what I am saying, but rather are hearing what you want to hear.
Should dumb a’’ white folks just not attempt to dialogue on this issue with you?
Do you just want to hear somebody Amen what you already believe?
Who do you think that I think that I am?
I’m no fortunate son.
Bro. Hutch,
You did say that institutional racism does not exist. Don’t leave out the word institutional to rebutt me. I didn’t leave it out to rebutt you. I focused entirely upon what you said.
How is it that you equate being realistic about a problem that still exist as being “bitter”? Because you don’t have to worry about that problem, do you? Ever been pulled over by the boys in blue because of your nice car? What about those other things I asked? Have those things happened to you? Do you think the police are color blind? How about the politicians?
I gave you my brief resume so that you could see that I’m not “bitter” despite what paint you wish to brush me with. You needed to know that I wasn’t some forty ounce drinking ex-con sitting on the couch playing Madden complaining about the white man holding me down while waiting on a booty call so I could make another “illegitimate” baby. I have not been blinded by failure nor success. Nor anger. I live in reality. How about you? I mean look at this statement:
(Hutch) “The answers to your questions are that individuals perpetrate acts of racism that is not sanctioned by current law or policy of any corporation, government, law enforcement agency or school district.”
(BLD) Why is it that, for you, it must be in a corporation’s SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) binder in order to be in practice? So what it’s not on an official policy statement. Does that mean that it’s not widespread? When a large company’s CEO decides “we better hire at least one”, I guess that clears your conscience too.
Now, do you want to see an example of a racist law? Someone convicted of possessing one ounce of powder cocaine (used/sold mostly by whites) will get less than a quarter of the jail time of someone else convicted of possessing the same or less amount of rock cocaine. Do you think that was by accident? How about checking out the average sentences rendered to whites who kill blacks versus blacks who kill whites? How about justified homicides where police kill blacks? If it happened as often to whites do you believe it would be as overlooked?
And the government? Where are the majority of Planned Parenthoods Hutch? Check Cashing places? Gun shops? Liquor stores? Fast food establishments?
On the flip side, where are all the grocery stores? Hospitals? Dental offices?
Let me give you a little insight. Do you want to know what I will teach my children? Prepare to work twice as hard, dress twice as neat, speak twice as well and still be at a disadvantage. But to trust God. When you get pulled over by the police, keep your hands on the wheel at all times, ask the officer for permission to reach for your license and registration even after he ask for it, never raise you voice or appear upset, thank him and wish him a nice day even after he checks your break lights, tire pressure and issues you a ticket for speeding even though you were not. And to trust God. Consider everything a politician promises a lie until after he/she actually accomplishes it.
You see Hutch, when you live in reality you will hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Bro Lawrence D,
For whatever reason Stephen and D. A. say they are ignoring you, so I guess that makes it my job to refute you. I’m going to quote you here because I can’t believe you actually said this:
“Let me give you a little insight. Do you want to know what I will teach my children? Prepare to work twice as hard, dress twice as neat, speak twice as well and still be at a disadvantage. But to trust God. When you get pulled over by the police, keep your hands on the wheel at all times, ask the officer for permission to reach for your license and registration even after he ask for it, never raise you voice or appear upset, thank him and wish him a nice day even after he checks your break lights, tire pressure and issues you a ticket for speeding even though you were not. And to trust God. Consider everything a politician promises a lie until after he/she actually accomplishes it.”
Well, let me give you a little insight. Wanna know what I will teach my children? To stay away from kids like yours. Wanna know why? Because your kids are gonna be racist. Before everyone goes jumping to conclusions, let me explain myself.
To teach your kids that no matter how good they are in life the “white man” is going to keep them down is teaching them to harbor a certain attitude toward white people. That’s racism. To teach them that white cops are bad or crooked is also racist. I happen to have several white police officers in my family that wouldn’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Also, this may shock you, I have many black friends who have no clue what you’re talking about either. So please, brother, get over this post-rodney king traumatic stress disorder. The difference between me and you is that I teach my kids that cops are the good guys, and as a result my kids will not always act on the defensive around them. If they’ve done nothing wrong they have nothing to worry about 99.9% of the time. Sheeesh!
Brother Lawrence, as you might have noticed, I am a woman. Just as you said that many people in your community feel like racism is still a big issue, many people that are like me still feel like sexism is a big issue. The truth is, women need to get over it. Whenever something bad happens to them they cry sexism. It isn’t sexism, sometimes life just sucks. Sometimes my life sucks because of men. But when life sucks, you pick yourself up and you drive on. I can’t sit there and teach my daughters that men are out to get them and that men will abuse them and men this and men that. Because then I become a sexist. There are a lot of great men out there. There are a lot of great women out there. There are a lot of great black people out there. And there are a lot of great white people out there. There will always be some men and women in every race that will do things that disgrace the rest of the people in that race. Those individuals become fewer and fewer with each generation, though I am certain there may always be at least a few. But if you are one of the ones always looking at how the white system is going to get you, then you become one of those few. Sorry but it’s true.
When I was in my sociology class last semester I heard a black girl in there complain that Black History month was February. When I asked her what the problem with February was, she said that white people made black history month the shortest month of the year.
I said WHAT!? You have Martin Luther King Day. You have Black History Month. There’s a Cesar Chavez Day. There’s Yom Hashoah. There’s Ma’uled Al-Nabi. There’s the NAACP. There’s BET.
Of course, if we had WET (White Entertainment Television) we’d be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists. If we had White History Month , we’d be racists. If we had any organization for only whites to “advance” OUR lives we’d be Racists.
We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and Then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that?
A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any Color can be in the Miss America pageant.
If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships you Know we’d be racists.
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US. Yet if There were “White colleges” that would be a racist college.
In the Million Man March, by their own admission blacks believed that they were marching for their Race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, we would be called Racists.
And by the way, February became black history month because that’s the month Carter Woodson, a black man asked for. He asked for it because it was in February that Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass were born. Your grandparents worked all their lives so they could live to see the day this country rid itself of segregation. They would be appalled that it was blacks who asked for a month to celebrate black history, that it was blacks who wanted a black chamber of commerce, that it was blacks who wanted Black TV, that it was blacks who wanted black colleges and blacks who wanted a million man march. Black people are the ones segregating. Not whites. It was Jesse Jackson, a black preacher, who called Obama the N-word, not a white preacher. And by the way, you should look up your facts and do a better job with your statistics. The most dangerous place for a black person to be is not in a white neighborhood, but a black one. Have a nice day!
Bro. Lawrence D.-
I’m not moving around on this issue. Institutional racism is gone; racism now only exists in the heart of individuals.
And unfortunately it is apparent that it resides in your heart and in your mind.
What comes out of our mouths, flows from our pens and proceeds forth from our word processor originates in the overflow of our hearts.
Despite the fact that I have posted here for months on a number of issues, you are so set in your mind about who white people are and what they think about black people, that you need to dispel what you think is in my mind. You are so paranoid that you feel the need to tell me how responsible you are so that I do not think you are some kind of slacker or reprobate.
I cannot begin to tell you how insulting and offensive that is to me and others who think like I do.
You have stereo typed me in the worst way-and the tragic thing is that you probably approach all white people with the same mentality and paranoia.
The fact is that you despise white people and you cannot even conceal it despite your best efforts.
So in your world, you have done quite well financially despite your company’s unwritten policy of racism? And despite your bosses best efforts to keep you down or to maybe even fire you, God has stayed his hand?
Do you think it would come as a surprise for your company and boss to learn that they are such racists?
On the other hand, the law enforcement organization in your part of America is hell bent on making sure they implement their unwritten policy of racism and seeing to it that you are incarcerated for life despite your law abiding ways but yet again God has sovereignty kept that from happening?
You also have insinuated that I have no compassion for people who are truly mistreated; there is no way for you to know that and again you cannot help but insult me again. Your heart is laid open for all to see-hopefully someone who you respect will be able to show you your blind spots.
Your worldview is racist and in your world most white people are evil or at the very least suspect.
I do not have to tell myself lies about reality to sooth my conscience as you have also insinuated as my conscience is clear on the issue. I have not a single ounce of “white guilt” as I am not a racist.
Again, I treat all people the way I wish to be treated regardless of skin tone, income level, and background or belief system.
Others like me of all ethnic groups are moving forward.
Once you have dealt with the racism in your heart, you can join us in being part of the solution.
Hutch, Burning Woman (I love that name by the way), and BLD,
I want to throw a little water on this fire. I will try to explain what I believe in hopes to steer the conversation in a Christ exalting direction. I think we have gotten into name calling and we must rember these two verses. Even if you feel your brother or sister is a racist (menaing they have not submitted this area of their life to the Lordship of Christ and thus is in open rebellion to their King) there are ways we are to address one another.
Eph 4:32
32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Col 4:12-13
12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Those are our parameters when discussing things even things we are passionate about and I haven’t seen much of this. I also expect this from D.A and your use of the word idiot is unexplainable and unacceptable, but so is calling each other racists.
So here is what I believe and I would love to interact with both my light skinned and dark skinned brothers and sisters on this.
1. Many whites believe that blacks and whites are on equal playing fields. I believe most of this is due to the fact that the majority has rarely ever experienced this type of racism. Even if they have experienced such prejudice the one who perpetrated against them has little to no power to effect their lives. Hutch and Burning Woman maybe you guys have never been guilty of this ever and for that I am excited, but we need to look no further than the Forturne 500 companies (92% are led by whites) and our prisons (72-74% are populated by black man). If you believe that this is just because black men love to commit crimes and don’t have the education or skillset to run these companies you would be greatly mistaken.
2. However I agree with you Hutch that this is not “institutional”. I just believe that most whites beleive we are level playing fields and in turn they turn their heads or outright ignore the constant social injustice that many experience. We saw this raise its ugly head during Katrina brothers and sisters. If you would have heard things like this “the crime rate went up rapidly when “those people” came”. Or “those people” should have just left (as if poor people can pack their families up, and go rent a hotel until the storm subsides). Others believe that Affirmate Action is just plain wrong, when less than 40 years ago (less than a generation) blacks in this nation couldn’t vote and going to certain schools or buying homes in certain neighborhoods were impossible. Many say “oh that was in the past” true but most of the people who own most of the wealth are the same people who stood in opposition to full citezenship of African Americans in this nation.
3. We as blacks must be careful not to interpret all opposition and even strong social conservatism as racism. We also have to be careful not to allow law breakers, to get a pass because of social hardships. Our ancestors moved this nation and fought for education, fought for voting rights, fought for other rights and we punt them and blame white folks for it. This is also unacceptable. Due to my poverty however, I was raised in an area and went to a school that exposed me and engulfed me in criminal activty. Beleive it or not the streets can break you. You get tired of going against the grain and if had not been for God directly intervening, I would be dead or in jail. I did many of the things rappers rap about and fast money, fast women, and low living caters to the depraved heart.
4. Hutch you are also right, this is an issue of sin and as believers our sword is the Word of God, namely the Gospel. I agree with burning woman, that we are to teach our children to be color blind. Not ignorant but color blind. This means that our children sees hues, but they understand that all of humanity is created in the image of God and that they are all sinners and sin manifests itself differently in differnt people. So how are we to respond? The Gospel, because Paul says “it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe…”. Our conversations to our children should consist of an active love not a category retreat. I also believe we are not to forwarn them but allow them to experience and then cover sins perpetrated against them with the love that God showed them in redeeming them and regenerating them. Paul goes on to say “while we were yet enemies Christ died for our sins”. If this is the case no sin against us is to be used as barrier but only a springboard to present Christ and the richness of His grace.
4.Finally burning woman, I can care less about politics, this isn’t a rebuke but an honest statement. I only trust in Christ and His second coming is the only real hope we have to save anything. Though I will excericse me right to vote, I am not persuaded by any party whatsoever, and race will not play a part in my election process. Issues will. I believe neither man to be pro-life. Obama hates babies and McCain hates the Muslim nation and Christ loves them both. One has war on the womb the other with adults who oppose his worldview, niether will get my vote most likely.
So all in all we are brothers and will spend eternity with one another and for that I am excited. I was blind and now I see, dead but now made alive by the Spirit of God and you are my family and I love you all greatly. I believe we can keep what makes us distintice and still be family, as long as those things don’t hinder fellowship. God bless.
Burning Woman,
I guess calling me a racist is supposed to give you an excape from addressing reality. No problem. Par for the course.
Can you point out to me where I said that “the white man” was keeping me down or would keep my children down?Can you point out to me where I said that my children should be afraid of “white” officers only? (BTW Burning Woman, was Rodney King the first or last time anyone’s civil rights were violated by police officers?) Why does my realistic view of things constitute as racism? Why would teaching my children those principles make them racist? Why wouldn’t it make them realist? Why would it make me a racist to teach them that life isn’t always fair? Wasn’t that what you said Burning Woman, that “life sometimes sucks”? You seem to believe that life sucking is not the result of sins such as sexism, racism, greed, etc.
I have no doubt that some of the things that you WILL teach your daughters will be as a result of what you have experienced with men or learned about them. I will teach my daughter some things based off of the man I used to be. That doesn’t make you or I a sexist. In this world, it makes our daughters prepared. And trust me the old “my black friends” defense isn’t going to cut it with me.
I notice that you go on a rant about all of the “Black” things in America, which you fail to acknowledge exist only because of Racism. I guess you believe that once one Black was allowed to integrate the other institutions, all of the ones that Blacks created for equal opportunities should have been dissolved. Interesting.
As far as BET is concerned, I don’t believe it contributes anything positive to Blacks or our image. Before Viacom (guess what race the board is there?) bought it the programming was educational and classy. Not any more! It’s now all-debauchery all the time.
But I must ask why it bothers you for Blacks to desire to celebrate their history, beauty, and culture?
Call me what you want. My feelings will not be hurt. But the fact remains that as long as sin exist in this country (and the world), so will racism. Unless, of course, you believe America is a Christian nation that is getting more holy, sanctified, and loving by the day.
Good word Lionel. No arguments from me.
Bro. Hutch,
You seem to have misread my posts and done the same thing that you accused me of, reading something into the words that aren’t there. For your hurt feelings, I apologize.
It’s also okay for you to believe me to be a racist. That’s a clear sign to me that you’d rather not deal with the issues I raised. James White once said that when it gets down to being called names, you know you’ve won the debate. But since this wasn’t a debate, and was supposed to be a dialogue, I will allow you not to respond. That’s cool.
I would like you to go back through my posts and point out where I blamed anyone “white” for anything. You won’t find it. Because the truth my opinion is that the color green, as in money, causes people, who otherwise have no racism in their hearts, to continue discriminatory practices. That is why I can agree with you that sin is the ultimate cause. We just don’t agree that racism is one major way in which sin is lived out.
Hutch you cry foul and express deep hurt over me assuming things about you and then you spend your entire post assuming things (nasty things I might add) about me. I despise white people? Come on! I based my assumptions off of your post. You based your assumptions off of my post. But you believe that you’ve done a better job of assuming and that your assumptions are superior to mine. Hmmm.
I never said to you that the company I work for is racist or has an unwritten racist policy. I was making the point that a company can have racist practices without a stated or declared racist policy.
It is not “compassionate” to tell an individual, let alone an entire race of people, to “get over it”. Would you say that to a rape victim? How about a mother who lost her son to gang violence? Or the war in Iraq? Is it okay for the rape victim to be nervous around men? Is it okay for that mother to cry every time she sees another dead soldier on the front page of her local newspaper?
As Lionel has said, this conversation is veering off course. The point of all my posts have been that we can’t have true reconciliation if we begin the process by ignoring real problems like racism. And even if it’s just a figment of our imagination, that very figment needs to be dealt with as well. It needs to be demonstrated to us that we’re imagining a problem where one does not exist. So far, I’m not convinced.
Hutch I believe that you love God and I do too. So if you truly believe that I’m a racist at heart, I solicit your prayers.
Of course I will be praying for you.
I’m not making assumptions your words testify against you.
Well, I’m not about to apologize for telling the truth. But if you want to steer the conversation in a different direction . . . well . . . I mean it’s your blog, whatever.
Bro. Hutch and Burning Woman,
I want you both to know that you sparked in me a desire to assess your accusations of racism. I’ve written about it on my blog which you can access by the link in the right corner of this blog. When either of you have time, read it and leave me a comment there. I promise to post it if you wish it to be posted.
I cannot locate the link. How do I access it?
It’s “Bro. Lawrence D” in the right column. It’s the second blog.
Hi Righter I’m responding to comment # 24:
“Righter would like to introduce herself to you and requests that you please provide the methodologies you used to arrive at the following quantitative determination:
Let me explain, I am 1/4 Swedish, !/2 American Samoan & 1/8 Italian & 1/8 German. When you look @ my face however you only see the 1/2 American Samoan”
~~~~~
Are you personally introducing yourself to me or are you speaking on someone else’s behalf? Either way, nice to meet you.
My father is 100% American Samoan, which means that both of his parents are 100% American Samoan. There are 2 islands near Australia, one is Samoa and the other is American Samoa. Also, my grandmother on my mother’s side is 100% Swedish, which meant her mother and father where both 100% Swedish. My mother’s father, my grandfather was 1/2 German 1/2 Italian. Which meant that his father was 100% German and his mother was 100% Italian.
Does that answer your question?
Heather
I did not call you a racist until you stereo-typed me by telling me what I thought about you.
What you said I thought about you is a lie.
It is all in your head, you made it up, and you are paranoid.
You are getting the chronology wrong.
I corrected you today about what I actually believed about you so you know it is not what you accused me of believing about you.
You showed your racial bias and racism by assuming you know what I think about you and black people in general.
You have no evidence to prove that I thought such and thing and a lot of evidence to the contrary.
If you are blind to what you have done, then there is nothing more to say.
One day you may see the truth.
We all have our blind spots.
One day you can join those who are part of the solution and when you do we will embrace you and welcome you aboard.
I did not expect you to do anything but attempt justify yourself and not deal with the issue.
Bro. Hutch,
I would like to talk to you on the phone. Perhaps you can shoot me an e-mail over to lawrencedacus@aol.com.
Hi Heather and thanks for the reply
Righter always “rights” in the third person so she is speaking on behalf of herself.
However, she is still a bit confused because she is not certain that you’ve had genetic testing that tells you exactly how your blood is divided, even though your are multi-racial.
Thanks again
hi righter,
can you please explain where you’re going with this- (she is not certain that you’ve had genetic testing that tells you exactly how your blood is divided, even though your are multi-racial.)
i know you’re addressing heather but since i’m following along, i’m wondering what you mean by stating the above.
burning woman, i’m just curious to find out who is the originator of these comments because i saw the same statement posted on d.a.’s blog.
“You have Martin Luther King Day. You have Black History Month. There’s a Cesar Chavez Day. There’s Yom Hashoah. There’s Ma’uled Al-Nabi. There’s the NAACP. There’s BET.
Of course, if we had WET (White Entertainment Television) we’d be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists. If we had White History Month , we’d be racists. If we had any organization for only whites to “advance” OUR lives we’d be Racists.
We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and Then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that?”
Brother Lawrence D-
I have come to the conclusion that the offensive comment that you remain unrepentant about was not knowingly made to insult me personally. But it does prove that you have a biased viewpoint of what white people in general think about black men.
Your comment regarding your employment situation also proves my assertion that racism is no longer institutional in America and that it is a rare and individual condition and not at all the dominant attitude.
BTW, Lionel at least partly agrees with me on that.
I have already answered your vague questions about inner city schools, government and business with my statement that racism is not institutional.
I never said that black people should just need to get over it. The fact is that I know some never will and that is a shame. In some cases it completely understandable depending on how up front and personal it was for them.
I did say that the hope is in the future and that My generation (GEN X) and the (Y Generation/Millennials) are as a group very color blind.
BTW these two generations are larger than even the Baby Boomers, GEN Y has been called the Echo Boom as they are a huge group.
We judge people by the character of their conduct not by the color of their skin.
You do indeed stereo-type white people, but I should not have called you a racist.
For that I would like to ask you to forgive me.
Bro. Hutch,
I still wish to converse with you over the phone. I believe that in that medium we can avoid assuming one another’s mood or intentions. This is the reason that I placed my e-mail above so that we could pursue clarity and closure in this situation. At this point we stand as two Christians at odds with one another and it may be that we don’t have to be. In fact, I’m sure of it. However, if that is not something that you desire to pursue, then I will make my final comment on it now and leave you with either the last word and/or the option of contacting me directly.
You are correct to assert that I remain unrepentant over my comments as it has yet to be demonstrated to me that I have sinned or was even wrong. I did, however, apologize if your feelings were hurt, back in comment #40.
I’ve attempted to explain to you that I had no preconceived notion as to what you thought nor what “white people in general” think but you have refused to accept my explanation. I have attempted to explain to you that my mentioning of my resume was done out of another consideration, which I will flesh out later, but you have refused to accept that explanation also. Since you have accused me of simply attempting to justify myself (a justification which I don’t need to offer to you), it may be that at this point you have too much “righteous indignation” invested to actually accept my sincerity. But I will try anyway.
Here’s what I was thinking when I decided to give that now infamous resume. In my experience, the ones who are usually raising those issues or making those arguments are individuals who are doing nothing in their own behalf to better their situation. (By the way, I also thought that this experience may be something that we have commonly shared) Instead of job hunting like the rest of us, they would rather sit around complaining that no one will hire them. They have defeated themselves before they they start, by refusing to try. But when asked why they aren’t working or why they are in the condition they are in, they are quick to blame “the man” or “the system”. I wanted it to be clear (and not just to you but to anyone who was reading my post) that I’m not on of those types of people. For me, any lack of advancement can be attributed to an unwillingness to compromise morals, conform to an expected standard, and/or fully apply myself. In that I accept full responsibility. And all successes are God’s doing. That’s my personal perspective on my current state of affairs.
Based on this fact, I believe that I am able to be objective when describing discrimination that some DO in fact face. I don’t have a personal axe to grind, even as a person of color, simply because again I accept responsibility for the opportunities that I squandered. But not everyone had the opportunities that I had. Even those who might have lived next door to me. Even though I am to blame for my own situation, it is not the same with others. Hutch, someone has put in just as much effort and even more than me, but was unsuccessful in their endeavor because of discrimination. A discrimination that was more common than not. I guess I just wanted you to acknowledge that.
So there’s my explanation. Take it or leave it. Consider me a racist, bigot, and even paranoid if you like. The fact remains that my conscience is clear and I have been honest. Maybe I wasn’t very clear about where I was coming from but I was honest.
I have acknowledged that I should not have called you a racist and have apologized for it and asked for your forgiveness.
If something else is required, let me know.
hi hutch, i hope you give lawrence a call :o)
Bro. Hutch,
Man I knew I forgot something. I forgot to acknowledge your apology. For that I must apologize myself. So yes indeed brother, I forgive you and I consider us reconciled. Moving on.