I guess my question is this….. what is the end goal of discipleship/gathering/church?
I have been struggling with this for some time now. As I have wrestled with seminary (and which one) different affiliations/denominations: PCA, SB and Bible to name a few, the revolving door has landed right back where I started. What is the purpose for us meeting together weekly, in buildings, in homes, in rented schools. As I look at marketing trend after marketing trend. Theological trendiness… we have everything from missional, evangelical, emergent, there has been a rise in reformation theology for blacks, spirit-filled, Word of Faith (is this what they like to be called?), to whatever other trend that seems to be working for the moment. I have been involved in at least three of those maybe four. But I guess I have always been one to sort of kick against the grain as my former teaching pastor would say (LOL).
So back to my question. Is our current church model producing those who will never grow out of infancy? Should a person remain under the “teaching” ministry of one individual for their entire lives? Should we go to a “church” and stay there until death listening to a pastor who will stay there until death. Only changing our fortunes by going to seminary and becoming a pastor ourselves. It is funny because in Hebrews the writer rebukes the recipients for this very thing. He says “by now you should be teachers”. Paul also challenged Timothy to “entrust this to faithful men”. Are these faithful positions?
I don’t know what the answer is but I have seen the fruit. When someone is challenged their answer typically is “well my pastor said……” I am not saying that we aren’t to learn. We are to be perpetual pupils, just not perpetual infants. Or maybe I am wrong. But I am wondering what exactly did Paul mean in Ephesians 4 when He talked about the gifts given to the church for the end result of maturity. So is the end goal again for me to come to a church Sunday after Sunday listen to someone pick songs for me, preach to me, teach me Sunday School lessons, invest the financial gifts I give until I die?
If we are to be under someone elses “authority” and submitted to “leaders” then exactly who do they submit to? If someone is holding my fork and spoon who holds theirs? If the answer is no one, then I must ask do I now need a mediator to get closer to God? Do I now need someone to study the bible for me? If the end result is maturity as the Holy Spirit penned through Paul, then what happens when I reach that maturity?
Again I am not being sarcastic. I am seriously wrestling through the way we do “church”. Is there a level of maturity that frees me from such submission of a higher authority? Again if not how does the one who possess the authority operate independently. Why does his edification come from outside the church such as leadership conferences and such and not from within the body? I don’t know what it should be but the current model should raise concerns, just as the picture above should raise concern. If you saw a 50 year old woman breastfeeding her 25 year old son, you would be genuinely concerned. However our current model does just that.
Again, I am just wrestling through these and as Paul, the writer of Hebrews and other sections of scripture assume and even command us to mature, once we have come to maturity is it time to fly away from the nest or sink our claws into the nest?
Well brother, let me be among the first to respond. Honestly, I don’t know. I wrestled with such questions in my personal transition. I came to a more intimate understanding of GOD’s WORD at a particular place of worship – Providentially, it was also at this particular church that I was introduced to Reformed Theology (or merely, “Biblical Truth” as many prefer). I was there for about two years or so and then I began to realize that my understanding of GOD’S WORD had caught up with the preaching of GOD’S WORD. The Gospel was faithfully preached LORD’S DAY by LORD’S DAY . . . BUT, in all honesty, the truths exposited were often nothing more than gleanings that I could have gathered in my evening studies of GOD’s Word alone. Challenges existed because the congregation was in an urban area where the background of many of the congregants was high school education or less . . .
I often wondered if this contributed to the style of preaching of the local pastor, but at the same time, my heart entered and exited the worship services in the exact same condition.
Eventually, an employment opportunity arose with uprooted me from the particular church, and moved me elsewhere. Since the first day of attending to the alternate church, not a single Sabbath has come and gone where I have not been challenged in my walk and Faith.
At the end of the day however, I desire to return to that church, because of the many “walking dead” who reside in the neighborhood. But in my attempts to return, will I exhaust myself in street evangelism, “preaching to others, that in the end, I myself am disqualified. Thus, we’ve come full circle – to answer your question, honestly, I don’t know.
I would say that our traditional churches are designed to be schools from which no one will ever graduate.
Whether you are 8 years old, or 18 or even 80, you are expected to sit quietly, listen, give and return next week to do the whole thing over again.
Churches today, by and large, are not set up to plant new churches, send out missionaries (here or overseas), or to make disciples – which is our one, simple, basic command as a church.
We make converts. We do not make disciples.
In order to make a disciple (a daily follower of Jesus), you would also have to be a daily follower of Jesus yourself.
We pour millions of dollars into evangelistic events to make converts, but even if those are successful we have no plan in place to disciple these people. We just say, “If you don’t want to go to hell raise your hand. Good. Now repeat this prayer after me. Fill out this card. Here’s a Bible. See you on Sunday.”
That’s it.
Sadly, this is not what Jesus commanded us to do. He told us to make disciples – “teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.” When do we start doing that part?
This is a much wider discussion, of course. I have been working on a book about the Church that Jesus dreamed of and how far we have strayed from that original vision of his and the Apostles.
Thanks, Lionel, for a chance to verbalize some of what I see and have come to understand.
Blessings,
Keith
Hey NB,
Do you think the answer is to go to a church where the pastor is more educated and preaches more “deeply”?
Brother Keith,
You said
I would say that our traditional churches are designed to be schools from which no one will ever graduate.
This is priceless brother. Priceless. There are some churches that are training and letting go most are of the house church persuasion. I believe that http://www.christfellowshipkc.org may be one. The coauthor (though invisble lately) of this blog is a member there and they have no plans on holding on to people to grow the church, they spend quite a while equipping the saints and also raising up men from within their ranks to be elders/chruch planters in a homefellowship context. Check em out.
Again my struggle is that Keith,
That we are building schools where not only are people not graduating, they really have no intentions of you graduating. That is why I posted the picture of the baby. Now I can do what it takes to get there but if my end goal is to just be a person who perpetuates the common mentality then I rather stay away and do ministry like I have been currently.
Lionel and Keith – You have verbalized this dilemma very well. I can recall even as a teen in church wondering why people who had been in church all their life were never considered spiritually mature enough that they could leave the nest so to speak. The only people considered worthy of that were the ones with a degree that said they were worthy.
It always struck me as odd that a kid barely out of his teens can get a degree and is suddenly considered spiritually mature enough to lead and mentor, but a lifelong Christian in his 60’s still needs to be at the church nipple every Sunday and can’t be weened.
Unfortunately, I believe this is an area in which money comes into play very often. It may not be the only reason, but I believe it is a huge factor. Churches and their leadership do not want people leaving. The more people attending every week the more money they bring in. Without the money the staff doesn’t get paid. And the leadership in churches realize that true discipleship will require sending those we have trained out.
The saddest part of this to me is that I believe this view is extremely short sighted. I think true discipleship would continue to draw people into our churches (institutional and otherwise) to replace those we are losing. I just don’t think those leading our churches today can look past the part of losing people. I think they fear sending their people out will stop the gravy train.
I hope I don’t sound overly cynical, but I really do believe that.
yo’ Lionel I told you before this stuff is totally out of wack. Because we have took the pastor thing out of context. The infancy stage “will” not stop because of the pastor mindset.
Lionel me and mike and Angie have been preaching this for many yrs to say the lest in and out of church. These people do not and will not give up there traditions that Paul didn’t pass down it’s that simple. You have two come out! and still love them that’s it there is no other way my friend. BABY bottles for ever lol because of the fear of man. I’ll stop here because I can write for ever on this stuff it’s very sad situation.
Thankyou for this post – GREAT picture, we can’t have our babies growing up because if they do they will leave home. The attractional church has no desire to lose members you have to feed the machine, commitment to the local church is commitment to God.
BTW – I have linked here.
Lionel,
This may sound very stupid. Definately not theological. Anyway here it is.
There was a song in the 70″s that went somewhat like this:
“Mommas don’t let your babies grow up to be cowboys”
So in this case we could possibly substitute a few words as such:
“Pastors don’t let your converts grow up to be disciples…or leaders……….just add whatever.”
I am struggling with this very issue where I am going also. It is a hard thing when you see something in scripture that doesn’t match up with what you are experiencing in church. Then when you bring up the scriptures it comes back as being divisive. I grew up in the Catholic religion and later in life after reading the scriptures and feeling God was leading me out, I would ask the preist questions on why we do things certain ways. I couldn’t get an answer because in some cases they didn’t know why. So needless to say my wife and I left. It was hard because we were youth workers and had a lot of friends. Now I find myself in the same situation in my current church which has gone through some transitions (for the good) lately. But I can’t continue to be apart of something that doesn’t match up with what Paul wrote.
I love the brethren and that is what makes things hard. Yet we love our parents also but there comes a time to leave the house and start your own life. We can’t remain infants and live. We must be able to walk on our own with God’s help and guidance. Sincerely, Steven Owen
Usher: This is why the humans build such big churches Deak, they really should call them “nests”
Deacon: Yep, they won’t throw them out of the nest because unlike us birds, the babies keep tithing and the pastors need to pay their mortgages
Usher: Imagine if we had to keep all the kids? Yuck – we’d never be able to find enough roadkill to feed them all
Good after noon or whatever time you are currently in.
Before coming into the information most recently (reformed theology) and before know about sovereignty or the likes, I was part of my father-in-laws church and it was like this. When I began to grow and learn outside of the teaching that the pastor was doing, I asked this question. One day I decided that it was time to meet with the pastor and ask the tough questions. At that time I realized that we could not continue walking together, if we did not agree on the essentials of faith.
I asked the following questions:
1. If others in the church refuse to grow spiritually, is it fair to continue teaching at an elementary level and squash the growth of the other individuals purposely or leave them to themselves?
2. As far as seminary, I was thinking about, do you think that after being a Christian now for about 10 years, is it ok to go on to seminary, to enhance and grow for preparation for the ministry which God is calling me?
3. I said “Maybe I completely missed it, but can you expound on the vision of the church, because the one posted is very unclear, and it makes it hard to follow a vision if you do not know it or understand it” Can you explain what I am missing?
These are just a few that I asked hoping to get clarification and wisdom from my pastor.
His responses to these were:
1. I will preach at the same level. If they refuse to grow I will keep preaching at the lower level. The mature in the church don’t matter as much.
2. I don’t think that you are ready for seminary, they will twist you up. I disagree with you going to any school. (remember, its been ten years)
3. I don’t have to explain anything. The vision is given to the pastor and the people must follow regardless. The pastor is the one who gives direction from God and only he needs to know the vision.
There were other questions pertaining to the sovereignty of God and the other doctrines of grace that he could not or would not answer.
Although he was my wifes father, I got out of there. It took a while of searching and researching before finding a place close enough to my home that was preaching the word by biblical exposition in love and all sincerity. I have been away from the church for about 2 years now and it is a spiritual relief. Although because the old church is comprised of family that remain unchanged, unrepented, unwilling, and unfruitful, I still have a serious issue because my wifes heart remains bound to her family and even though she knows that all that was going on was wrong, she has not understood how that translates to them individually and in the family. I try by example to show that the family is the family, but the faith is the faith. We are not obligated to pretend for sake of family, but if we truly love them, we would speak the truth in love hoping for a repented heart to recieve it and run with God in it.
I feel your pain, and I wrestle with the ability to move on and still maintain a healthy relationship with my wife, her family, my family, and God’s family, all to which I have some ties.
Hey Mark (minus the R)
I don’t know if it is money as it relates to money if you know what I mean. But what I do see is this. A man who will spend 40K upwards for a degree wants to use that degree to earn money. I went to school for Finance and I didn’t want a job as a postman. But I think you are right in the fact that there is a need for money. Not in the big business sense but in the fact that these men and women need funds, they are gifted speakers and a great deal of them are very God hounoring individuals, but the problem is this: is the end goal of seminary a professional position?
I think our seminaries not only promote this but maybe even demand it. Many come out of seminaries “interviewing” for “positions”. That sounds so anti-biblical. But it is the truth. So their goals are to secure a position. What happens next is the people who pay them expect some type of return on their investment. That return is more people and a slew of other nonbiblical responsibilities. If they do well, wel… their salries increase, if not they will be put on a chopping block and “fired” and they will find someone who is more gifted (not in the Spiritual sense) to fill the roll.
You see there is a vicious cycle then. Rather it is elders who control this, deacons, the people or a combination this shouldn’t be. But this is what happens when the pastorate becomes professional. Not to mention this professional takes on the responsibilities of all the members, thus he becomes a “church” funcitionally all to himself. No matter which circle you are in “reformed” or “charismatic” or “Southern Baptist” you become a pawn who must perform. In one circle you just get demoted, in one you can control the people and it is your “church” in the last you are a pawn in most cases.
Just my thoughts.
Mark + the R
I agree it becomes a christian eating machine that leaves the Christian in a vicious cycle of perpetual infancy.
Hey DTG,
I don’t think we have to leave the “institutional church” unless that institution refuses to come to the scripture openly and honestly. Check out http://www.assembling.blogspot.com The guy there is a pastor/elder and they function much like I desire to see a church function. I think we can meet in buidlings, have pastors/elders, deacons and a choir. I think we can have much of what the institution does, but I think our goal is for them not to remain in infancy. Rather that is sending people out by planting or having a cell model where the church really functions during the week and meety corporately to get specialized teaching, work out doctrinal issues, or to pool resources to meet the needs of the community, each other, and traveling ministers/missionaries.
This may not work in 99% of institutional churches but my hope is that it could.
Steve O,
I love your heart brother and you always post very encouraging and thought provoking comments much like Phillip, Mark, Alan and now Larry.
I must say it is a struggle why? Because I don’t want to look like an outcast or trouble maker much like you are talking about. I was thinking about talking to my gathering about the Lords Supper because the cracker and the sip is getting to become false worship for me. I just don’t know how to break it in and if people would even embrace it.
Also I think our discipleship is a joke. Where are the pastors who are taking your brothers under their wing and training them in Church history, the languages and the systematic and biblical theologies. You see we work backwards in America. Instead of training people who we have, we have people who are trained this has been disastorous. No one is pulling young men and women to the side and providing an education that would equip them (men) to take on the pastorate. A man most always be sent off only to lose the daily interaction with the very people God may be calling him to be an undershepherd of.
This is why I love Christ Fellowship of Kansas City and this is also why Jone E. Coleman out in California is making a difference (chek out the link on the side). He has a theology school that he does out of his garage. And he teaches them all of what I spoke about.
You think you and Phillip would do something like this? I am going to do all I can to make it up to Conway brother.
Hey Larry,
I still think the model you talk about makes perpetual infants. What I mean is even if you go to a smarter church the man who holds the pastorate will always have a one up on you. I am saying as a disciple maker I want you to be on equal footing with me so that you can entrust this gospel to more faithful man who will do the same.
Lionel,
About your question of having a theological school. That is where Phillip is better equipped. As such we and our families meet under a couple of Pine trees in a run down forgotten about mobile home park. We are in the process of discipling babes in Christ in hopes of seeing them grow and take over the ministry. Then we will go somewhere else.
The other struggle I didn’t mention about where I currently am going to church is that they are heavy on the expository teaching. Which I never was exposed to before. I really learned a lot from this. And I enyoy that aspect.
Our elders are definately not ones who Lord it over the people as to abuse their roles. It is just other issues that make me not feel comfortable being in church led by a few ie. worship leader, no participation during the teaching time etc. Once I seen 1 Cor. 14:26 in the light I just can’t be comfortable going back on Sunday mornings. I still go there on Sunday nights when they have the Love feast. Other than that I am dedicated to the work at the mobile home park. It is wonderful to see how God works when you yeild to His holy word and Holy Spirit. Sincerely, Steve
Well lets hold out for the 1% with God all things are possible. My faith is not there for this to happen now!
I rememeber my pastor’s brother in law, who is a very good Bible teacher, said this: “God did not call us to be 18 inch Christians”. He explained that 18 inches is the amount of space the [average?] person occupies on a pew. The point is clear regardless of whether we serve in a professional capacity as a minister or not we are ALL called to serve. The great commission instruts us to go and preach the gospel to every creature. He didnt just limit this to the orginal apostles. The Bible is clear that that gifts were given to perfect the church. Not all of these gifts are what we consider professional ministry gifts. In fact, I think one of the great reasons for our failure to be productive believers is because we have made the distinction between lay people and clergy. We then confuse the issue even more in some churches by calling some people “lay ministers”. The bottom line is, there is no real distinction in the scriptures. All of us are called to serve. It may mean that we stay in one church all of our lives, or God may direct us to opportunities to serve elsewhere. The thing is, we should never be content just to sit in a pew and sing…. God wants more from us than that. And because of our love for Him, we should be willing to give it.