I know a Pastor who:
1. Drives 3 hours to preach in a small town in a small church (10 members) for free
2. Who helped fix the building with their own money
3. Who drives down to visit if something goes wrong
4. Who visits the sick
5. Who visits the children of those in the church that are imprisoned.
6. Who preached a couple of times when only one person showed up. The pastor said if their is one they deserve to be ministered to.
7. Who washes feet
8. Who decided to do a joint service to show that their is no division within the body of Christ
9. Who works a full-time job, in which a good portion of the money goes back to help that church instead of close the doors.
10. Who happens to be a Woman.
Not condoing the violation of 1 Timothy 2-3 but just wanted to know what would you think if she was a he?
Lionel,
This is a question, and a subject, worthy of great discussion and debate within Christian circles today.
My short answer is that I have no problem with this at all.
The longer discussion is: Does the 1 Tim 2-3 passage intend to say that a woman cannot have a pastoral gifting?
I would answer, “No”.
Our problem is that we equate leadership within the Christian Church as being the CEO/Pastor who acts as a Boss and through whom all teaching, edification, instruction, encouragement, (and many of the other 28 spiritual gifts described throughout the NT) are flowing.
This is not a Biblical position. According to 1 Cor 12, God has designed His Church to act relationally. He has given everything the Body needs to function and grow to the Body, through His Holy Spirit, which lives within each member of this Body.
Read 1 Cor 12 and you will NOT see where God has provided one elect leader or member from whom all the gifts flow to everyone else so that they can grow, mature, receive mercy, etc.
What God DID do was to give all of the gifts to various people distributed throughout the Body. He even made sure that the encouragement you need is available from someone else in the Body. This means you need the rest of us. It means we need you. We need each other to grow, mature, etc.
As to the question of women as leaders/elders, this is a bit more tricky.
Yes, Paul appears to teach that women shouldn’t have any authority within the Body in 1 Tim 2-3. However, he also teaches that a woman should cover her head when she Prophesies. (see 1 Cor 11:4-5)
Prophecy is one of the greatest “leadership” gifts in the entire Body (see 1 Cor 14: 1-5), and in Paul’s vision of Church, women are allowed to Prophesy!
What is prophesy except to speak to the Body a message from God for their edification and strengthening in Christ?
Also, Paul often says things with a qualifier like, “I am saying this, and not the LORD…” or, as in 1 Tim 2-3, “I do not allow…” but he leaves room for us to disagree with him in these matters of cultural preference. We do not have that same privelege when Paul leaves off that qualifier.
Sorry for the long commentary. I will go back to work now.
kg
Hey Keith,
You said:
Yes, Paul appears to teach that women shouldn’t have any authority within the Body in 1 Tim 2-3. However, he also teaches that a woman should cover her head when she Prophesies. (see 1 Cor 11:4-5)
The only problem with those who try to use the “authority” arguement is that it is weak in terms of the greek usage of the verb which is “authenteō” or “αὐθεντέω” No one in the bible has this type of relationship between one another. The other time Authority is used it is translated “exousia” or “ἐξουσία ” which is the more common use of the word authority in the New Testament. The other word is translated “command” or “commandment” in most versions of the bible in the King James the word authority in Titus 2 is the word commandment.
So when I hear that arguement no one has that type of authority within the body of Christ so I don’t know why that is used. That is why I really believe this may have something more to do with husbands and wives not inside the church. The word is really to “excercies complete dominion” the husband doesn’t even have this over the wife. So there is something going on that Paul chose this word over the more common word “exousia” which he uses quite regularly and especially in 2 Corinthians 1.
My first reaction is to say that a woman cannot legitimately pastor a church. Having said that, let’s look at the positive things that are happening. This person is giving to a group of believers of their time, gifts, and money. She is making them a priority and demonstrating a godly love for these people. I would suggest that everyone who reads this post pray for the woman and the church that God will reveal Himself even more clearly than He has and work out His perfect will among them.
That’s all I’ve got.
Hey Joe you said:
My first reaction is to say that a woman cannot legitimately pastor a church
Who can actually pastor a church? Or to ask a more loaded question who can actually pastor “the” church?
Lionel,
I agree with your clarification. The Church Jesus built isn’t meant to have anyone who “Lords it over” all the rest (to quote Jesus Himself on the subject). You’re right on that point.
I don’t agree that a woman can’t have the spiritual gift to pastor. God gives out those gifts to whomever He chooses. It could be a man. It could be a woman. It could be a 12 year old girl. God decides who gets that gifting and not us.
Of course, someone who attends a seminary and gets a degree could take a job at a church where they call him “Pastor” but that won’t mean that God has gifted that man with the spiritual gift of pastoring.
Thank God for that 12 year old girl.
And the woman you describe in this post, too.
-kg
Lionel
Thanks for the feedback. As far as who can pastor a local assembly, those qualifications are in Titus and 1 Timothy 3, I think. Of course, you already knew that. I guess the point I was getting at is that the person would need to be a man and that man would have to meet those biblical qualifications. Of course, not everyone agrees with me on that. I reckon that’s ok.
As to your second question, I would borrow from Brother Alan Knox when the church he attends says that their Senior Pastor is Jesus. Really, only He can truly Pastor “the church”.
I’ve added your blog to my blog roll, btw. You are a great encouragement. Contend ernestly for the faith, dude!!!
Lionel,
I’m still struggling with the issues of women elders. I’m not comfortable with either the standard egalitarian or complementarian positions, because they are both based on authority.
That said, it seems that most people would not have a problem choosing someone as an elder who met all of the biblical requirements except one – for instance, hospitality, gentle, peaceable… However, if that one “qualification” is gender, many will run the other way. There doesn’t seem to be a “hierarchy” in the list of characteristics that describe elders. And, if we take all of the characteristics into account, we would have to say that no one “qualifies” – “beyond reproach” anyone?
So, I say all that just to reinforce that I still have many questions, and it seems that most believers are not consistent in the way they use the list of “qualifications” in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
-Alan
I personally would lean more in favor of what Lionelwoods shared. In 1 Tim 2, Paul specifically said, “I suffer not a women to teach.” Like Keith said in his post, Paul often preferenced his statements by saying “I say, not the Lord, or the Lord says, not I.” This would indicate that the instruction in 1 Tim 2, is more like a Pastor given his staff or associate Pastor his vision for his ministry. I don’t see this as an imperative or principle for the order of the church. The same Paul who penned that statement said in Gal 3:26-28,
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
God doesn’t see male or female in the church. However, he does make a distinction in marriage. Once a women marries, her husband becomes her head.
Lastly, I believe that at times 1 Tim 2, should be applied! Paul mentioned that a women should stay covered because of the angels. What he’s saying is, the church is being watched, and the purposes of God can be witnessed through us, so for the Glory of God, the man is preferred, especially if a brother or sister is unlearned or as a problem (culturally) with women teaching, then for love’s sake and to reach the lost, let the man teach! But if the Holy Spirit has given the word to a women in the assemply, we must yield to the Holy Spirit! The Church belongs to the Lord, if he want’s to use an ass to speak to his phophet in the old covenant, do we really think he won’t use a women to speak to his Church in the new? Remember Deborah was a Judge over all of Israel, and what about the phophesy of Joel,
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (Joel 2:28)
When we examine one or two scriptures this subject is debatable, but when we look at the whole of scripture women are clearly used by God. It’s not the norm, but it is not prohibited either!
Greetings in the NAME of our LORD & SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST!
Brother Lionel,
I am new to your site and I am very impressed. I have been following your holy comments at Pulpit-pimps.org and I know you are true vessel of the LORD. I agree with the comments by yourself, Keith Giles, and Joe Blackmon.
I want to share with you and your audience one of my many testimonies.
I have PERSONALLY walked in covenant faith with a “female” pastor/prophetess/evangelist/teacher the past 10 years. She is a “Holy Ghost filled fire baptized” black woman in her early 60s that the LORD sent personally to me almost 10 years ago to this exact time and date(*I lived 4 hours away from where this woman lived*). I needed help from above and I had lost my way and needed serious counseling, deliverance, healing, and encouragement–GOD sent me a woman of GOD. She adopted me as a spiritual son–the best way I can describe our relationship is like a Barak(me) and she is a Deborah. I covenanted with her January 2004 to plant a holy fellowship here in the Washington DC/Prince George’s MD area. “We both receive much rejection and persecution because she is a female pastor and I am the elder/assistant pastor.” I would like to emphasize when done properly and as directed by the HOLY SPIRIT, females in ministry/leadership really and truly operate as “mothers” in the body of CHRIST.
2 BIG problems today, a lot of the “mothers” have been warped with leaven and false teachings that make them more like Jezebels(Paula White, Juanita Bynum, etc.) and traditional male dominated denominations , out of fear of Jezebel spirits and male insecurity with “annointed women”, HOLD A LOT of women who are called and chosen by the LORD “in bondage” because of Paul’s directions. The real deal “HANDMAIDENS” suffer much today because of this paradox and have a hard time going forth!
Paul was addressing when women “USURP” authority–DOMINATING, men hating women who were wolves in the world and NOT being fully converted and delivered, these Jezebels bring this Mindset/Mentality to the Church! Perfect example, a “head strong, dominant personality” Juanita Bynum took an already married man who was a Bishop from his wife(ADULTERY and what happened to being the husband of 1 wife???), said the man was her husband(Completely out of scriptural order, Proverbs 18:22…whoso[the man] findeth a wife… and exalted herself BEFORE the world with this Ahab and GOD judged her and Ahab before the world–she brought more shame and reproach to holy matrimony than sinners could have! …Sidenote, what happened to all that prophesying that occurred at the wedding of the century…Ha!)
I have not seen ONE prophecy or ONE word of knowledge “fall to the ground” from my spiritual mother’s lips. CASE EXAMPLES, after I “humbled myself” and “received” this woman to minister to me and my situation, she gave me a prophecy that I would meet my wife very soon, end of July 1998–I met her August 15, 1998 but “my wife” was not ready(**she had just finished college and she was 22 years old–not interested! and here comes this Holy Ghost filled 27 year old guy who I do not know other than his mom was my first grade teacher and he’s got the nerve to tell me on our first date, I am his wife! I am running away from him-LOL, I have the gift of prophecy and I knew from the Spirit, she was the one but she was not ready to be the one-Smile, another testimony for another time, too long to mention here!**)
My “spiritual mother”, gave me another word of prophecy on October 1, 2000 that I would be married in 2 years–I had NO serious girlfriend in the picture(***under divine direction from the Holy Spirit, I stopped dating December 1999. I was friends with the young woman whom I had told she was my wife–sidenote about true prophecy, when GOD seals you–its a done deal, there is no escape-LOL-no other male suitor came her way!!! It took the LORD 4 years to work on her and bring her to me, and GOD literally fulfilled “spiritually” for me Genesis 2:22). I was married to my wife, the very same woman I met August 15, 1998 on October 5, 2002. Hallelujah!
I have seen the Mark 16:17-20 signs(except taking up serpents as with Paul and drinking any deadly thing) and “ALL 9 gifts of the Spirt”(1 Cor. 12:7-11) operate in this holy woman’s everyday walk and ministry.
The 10 descriptions of the woman pastor you referenced would fit 100% to a tee on my “spiritual mother” and pastor, the only difference is our fellowship is not 3 hours away but local, but the she matches #s 2 through 9 100%! If you want to quantify #1 about preaching 3 hours away, she will go anywhere the HOLY GHOST commands her to go and she did come to me who lived 4 hours away!
I would add 3 more description to my “spiritual mother” and you could probably add these to the above referenced pastor. I have never seen or heard this woman beg or demand MONEY, OFFERINGS in the 10 years I have known her and I helped plant our current fellowship 4 1/2 years ago. Second, I have never seen her use “Controlling” methods to make people follow her–she says, “Whosoever will, let him/her come.” Third, she always exalts JESUS CHRIST and GOD the FATHER! She never exalts or attempts to promote herself, and her spiritual gifts.
In the 10 years I have followed CHRIST and coming into contact with a lot of ministers(male & female) and discerning fruit in people’s lives, I would say for the 30 or more males who are pastors, bishops, apostles, prophets, elders of GOD from various organizations/denominations-27 black american/african/caribbean and 3 white), maybe 7 to at the most 10 exhibit this type of behavior or as the KJV says, “holy conversation” that my spiritual mother displays–she is 100% female and she has weaknesses being we all live still in the flesh! The same 7 to at the most 10 men of GOD fit the 9 traits except #10 plus my 3 extra descriptions 100%! The other men of GOD were hirelings or borderline hirelings and/or were bound by denominational traditions of men. Out of the 30 or so “women” in ministry… pastor/prophetess/evangelist/apostles(Yes), co-pastors(?), 1st Ladies(?) (24 were BLACK, 1 philipino and 5 white who hung with us black folks), I have had theological discussions, in theology school and watch personally minister the past 10 years, 60% fit the 10 descriptions plus my 3 extras–the other 40% if they had the platform, fame and fortune of a Juanita Bynum/Paula White–it would go to their head and they would fall from Pride!
I MUST admit, many men and women in leadership, especially in the BLACK Pentecostal/Charismatic circles have went OVERBOARD with “titles” in the DC metro area…Bishop, Apostle, Prophet/Prophetess, Elder, Co-Pastor(not in the bible), 1st Lady(Not in the bible) and we “HONOR” the “title” TOO MUCH! There is TOO MUCH HONORING of men(both) and NOT ENOUGH SERVING the flock–another blog discussion, Smile). I know people who are 1 member churches and they call themselves pastors/apostles!!!
My spiritual mother’s “charge” which she gave me when I was ordained as an elder by the charter organization by the senior elders(3 men and 3 women) in August 2005, “Little is much when GOD is in it. Labor not for fortune or fame. There is a crown and you can win it, when you go, Go in JESUS’ NAME!” and “True Ministry” is not always behind the pulpit or in front of man…It is behind the scenes!
I APOLOGIZE for a lengthy post, I wanted to share 1 of many personal testimonies–I have more “spiritual insights” about female pastors I would love to share with you LORD willing, but I will not give it without your PERMISSION.
GOD bless you richly and mightily and cover you and your family for taking the forefront and courage to post this topic!
Sincerely,
Elder Grover W. Stephens, Jr “AKA EnochWalked”
True Believers Praise & Worship Fellowship Inc.
Suitland, MD
Marvin,
You wrote “This would indicate that the instruction in 1 Tim 2, is more like a Pastor given his staff or associate Pastor his vision for his ministry. I don’t see this as an imperative or principle for the order of the church. ”
I respectfully disagree. At no point in scripture are we given anything other than the word of God. Paul, therefore, was not issueing an opinion but was speaking God’s inspired word. The instances in I Corinthians where he says “I say, not the Lord” or “The Lord says, not I” refer to issues that he was addressing that Christ had not taught on. In other words, he was putting his teaching on the same level of authority as Jesus Christ.
Thanks Joe. I guess I was referring more the model of pastor we see today. I struggle with that model, when one man or woman feels they are so gifted to have full authority in the church of God and that all that goes on must come through them first. This seems to be very arrogant although it is sold as humilty.
Alan,
I think I just addressed this in my comment to Joe. I think I agree that what is sold as leadership today is nothing more than what Jesus argued against in Matthew 23. I still believe it is arrogant to say “I have went to seminary, man have ordained, thus you must submit totally to me or leave”. This tends to be the position of many pastors.
Marvin,
I am with Joe on the fact that we can’t say Paul was giving an opinion the only problem is why isn’t women heads covered? Either both are cultural or niether (using a consisten hermeneutic anway). What do you think Joe?
Whhhy??? I’m meant to be going to work…but I’ll try and quickly post my initial thoughts and develop them later. Firstly, as a complementarian, I don’t believe in women elders. That said, she is doing a lot more work than 90% of the male pastors I know.
Also, on the issue of authority, there really isn’t any basis for one person having total authority over the whole congregations. When I read the New Testament, I see “elders” over all the place, and only a few references to pastor (that being one – Ephesians 4)…
**************************************
Dear Brother Lionel,********************
I come to YOU HUMBLY in the NAME of CHRIST to Present this Revelation Knowledge to you and others. BEFORE you post this, PLEASE take time if your schedule permits to review and DISCERN this message–TRY the SPIRIT, Amen.
IF this is TOO HEAVY, Please talk to me OFFLINE by email. I DO NOT WANT TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM TAKING OVER YOUR BLOG OR THAT I COME ACROSS AS A KNOW IT ALL****”THE ALL CAPS does not mean I am yelling or shouting, just giving emphasis-Amen!”
This is STRONG MEAT for the Body of CHRIST that I call “KNOWLEDGE FROM ABOVE”!
Sincerely yours in CHRIST,
Your Brother Elder Grover W. Stephens, Jr
FATHERLESS!
THE REASON FOR WOMEN PASTOR, WHICH IS A TRAVESTY IS DUE TO FATHERLESS FAMILIES AND CHURCHES!
I want to share this, then follow-up later this afternoon.
The HOLY SPIRIT has quickened me early this morning and
I had to awake around 4 AM EST and share this with you, my brothers and sisters in CHRIST!
If you sit down and ask straight forward questions with the woman pastor referenced above and one like my spiritual mother, who are pastors that happen to be female, or any true holy handmaiden of the LORD, they will tell you straight up that the LORD raised them up in this time and hour because the black men of GOD as a whole are spiritually and naturally AWOL, MIA, BOUND in PRISON and both spiritually DEAD and naturally DEAD. I have had these discussions with many holy women of GOD and I get the EXACT same answer from each of them–the MEN ARE NOT HERE!!!KEEP READING AND I PRAY THE HOLY SPIRIT ILLUMINATES WHAT I AM SHARING WITH YOU AND YOUR AUDIENCE!
****I am not trying to go off subject, but present an argument that is relevant to our times, RIGHT NOW******
*****This is the RHEMA or Revelation knowledge that the HOLY SPIRIT has shown me concerning why we have women leaders in the black churches as a whole! *****
Look from a natural/carnal view to see this “spiritually”.
Just look at the black American family–depending on whose survey you read, statistics say 69% to 71% of our black American children are raised by single black women. Personally, I think the true figure is close to 80/85% because our black congress/politicians intimidate “cries of racism” against the white majority (media) from telling the truth about black America! Now, racism and discrimination and unwarranted biases still exists–but it comes from both blacks versus blacks, blacks versus whites, and whites versus black, male versus female and vice versa!
I rank black single women by the following terms:
1. WIDOWS by DEATH. Widows due to DEATH of husbands and future widows due to death of “FUTURE HUSBANDS” This Death is the overwhelming MAJORITY of why we have #2 and I will explain why later!!!.
2. Out of wedlock mothers that have never married–most fall here because of the sin of fornication/adultery and NO sanctified, righteous, qualified black men who are FIT/WORTHY to be married due to #1–Death!
3. Divorced–2nd most (In America, 50% of “Christian” marriages are ending up in divorce–not just the world, but Christian marriages!)
4. Black men in prison.
The ABOVE RESULT in FATHERLESS in the Black households and have birthed spiritually # 5 BELOW!
5. Sodomite and “down low” black men come from the prison system (men are having sex in prison–and NOW, its hard for Christian prison ministries to get a foot in the door but our governments give preference treatment to Islam!).
REPENT! REPENT! REPENT! WE ARE NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN NATION! REPENT! REPENT!
#1. Widows by Death.
Now the first reason we have future widows is because of the CURSE and ABOMINATION Called ABORTION in the USA!
The Inception occurred January 22, 1973 Roe vs. Wade has brought a CURSE upon the black American family the past 35 and 1/2 years! Just check out these statistics:
A. 1,452 African-American children are killed each day by the heinous act of abortion.
B. 3 out of 5 pregnant African-American women will abort their child.
C. Since 1973 there has been over 13 MILLION Black children killed and their precious mothers victimized by the U.S. abortion industry.
D. With 1/3 of all abortions performed on Black women, the abortion industry has received over 4,000,000,000 (yes, billion) dollars from the Black community.
Quoted from:http://www.blackgenocide.org/home.html
#1 RESULTS in a trickle down effect on #2, #3, #4 and #5.
#s 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 are ALL the direct result of SIN in the Black Church and the Black Family–PERIOD. WE HAVE BEEN DUPED BLACK FOLKS, It’s TIME To get our “Negro(being polite) WAKE UP CALL” WE have been IGNORANT, BLINDED, CHARMED and BAMBOOZLED by our “Charismatic” leaders in the Black Church and our “Charismatic” black civil rights leaders and both black and white politicians, especially the Marxist Democrats! And now we have Senator Barack Obama ((I call him the Ultimate Democratic Weapon, The Trojan Horse Candidate, because he’s a black man [get all us dumb black folks to want a black president so badly, even the black churches will overlook his stand on abortion and gay rights–this is what the Democrats think about us black folks–they really think we are STUPID], he looks good to the eye(lust of the flesh), he’s “light-skinned” to appeal to white folks (non-threatening), he’s married to a “Chocolate Sista”, he’s a father to 2 beautiful daughters, and talks really well for a black man and he is IVY LEAGUE educated and to “APPEASE” the Muslim world(he was born a Muslim, so he still is a Muslim to them–this guy looks and sounds TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE) FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE, Obama has stated on RECORD that he supports Abortion and Sodomite/Lesbian rights! REPENT! REPENT! REPENT!
************GOD’s PERMISSIVE WILL****************
BUT, and a big BUT, GOD “permits”(“PERMISSIVE WILL versus PERFECT WILL”) children to be born out of wedlock and GOD being All-knowing and ALL-Foreseeing permits children to born in ALL marriages:
(SIDE NOTE, just recently in OUR times because “knowledge has increased” [Daniel 12:4 being fulfilled everyday], GOD is permitting children to be born as test tube babies, surrogate mothers [modern day Hagar’s], invitro fertilization, women who are lesbians/bisexual having children, and LORD knows what else is happening out there that the main stream media is not telling us!!!–Just as we all know that GOD is storing up HIS WRATH concerning Abortion–GOD is 100% ANGRY about this happening too and HE is reserving judgment for the wicked. HE is permitting this for a “season”, men(male and female) have REJECTED GOD and HIS SON, and HIS PERFECT WILL which is HIS HOLY Word and GOD will judge them SEVERELY–reprobates and nations think they are getting away with this stuff because they are “prospering in their evilness!”)
CON’T…GOD permits children to be born in ALL marriages:
1. Marriages ordained by GOD and heathen marriages not ordained by HIM and 2. GOD permits children to born in marriages that WILL end in divorce. 3. Lastly, GOD also permits children to be born in marriages where the husbands deceased leaving the women as widows. Some women are unmarried or widows because 1. Abortion and black on black murder/death 2. Out of Wedlock Sex from Fornication and Adultery 3. Divorces, and 4. The “babies’s daddies” committed crimes and are in PRISON and some are widows or divorced because their husbands sinned and are in PRISON! SO “Spiritually”, we have black women who have lost their husbands or future husbands to ABORTION, , black on black murder/death rates, Divorce and PRISON Sentences etc.!!!
*********WE are a Community in CRISIS!**************
Now with widows–that’s why in the OT and as well as the NT, GOD gave specific commandments concerning widows and the fatherless. Fatherless–key word, the Black American family TODAY as a whole is FATHERLESS! There are 43 verses of scripture in the KJV with the word “FATHERLESS”. Because of black men and black women’s BAD CHOICES and SINS, GOD has permitted children to be born and raised in this world to be “fatherless.”***This is why its IMPERATIVE to Proclaim 100% REPENTANCE and 100% HOLY LIVING and THE CROSS of JESUS CHRIST in our preaching and teaching versus GOD wants to bless you and prosper you ALL THE TIME!***
Why–one must be asking does GOD permit this–GOD is the giver of life–GOD does not abort HIS people or HIS purposes or HIS plan–HIS written Word. If you look at the MESSIAH’s bloodline/lineage through Judah, GOD permitted some sinful, not perfect, not holier than thou people to bring CHRIST into the world as the SON of DAVID and SON OF MAN -Amen. ****NOW when it came to the actual birth of MESSIAH, the PERFECT WILL OF GOD was done through the Virgin Mary because it was PROPHESIED by Isaiah 7:14***
Now, you do not have to be super duper spiritual and discerning TO SEE that the Black Church in America as a whole is FATHERLESS! I am telling you the black American male is either AWOL, MIA and worst case DEAD in the black Church and the black family! We have more black men in America incarcerated than we do in colleges and university. The media statistics says the ratio of black women and men in higher learning is something like 10 women to every 5.5/6 black men, and personally, I do not have statistics to verify this, I really believe its 10 black women to 3.5/4 black men in colleges/universities.****The Media does not TELL Us EVERYTHING! THEY ARE CONTROLLED TOO!******
Here in Prince George’s County MD, one of the WEALTHIEST per capita black MAJORITY populations in the USA, something like 60/65% of our black youth males/boys ages 13 to 18 in the past 10 years are or have been DROPOUTS!!!!60 to 65%!!!!!!!
Therefore, GOD is “PERMITTING” black women to be Pastors and leaders with authority because our black women have to HEAD their households and be the authority figure at home! Our black women, mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers NOW have to work and be the head of household to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table for their children/grandchildren/great grandchildren! ***** Just think in a natural standpoint to understand this spiritually, if there is NO MAN to take care of things, the women have to take on a role they ARE NOT CALLED and ORDAINED to do and by NECESSITY black women HAVE to do a MAN’s JOB–be the MOMMA and the DADDY, provider, sustainer, and PRIEST and SHEPHERD of the HOME! The church is supposed to start at HOME–LOOK at 1 Timothy 3 and Paul is addressing MALE MEN as Bishops or Elders and Deacons! BUT because of SINs/ABOMINATIONS in the Black American Church and the American Church as a whole, we have the situation we have TODAY! ***Another revelation, this TRAVESTY of “Fatherless” in the American home is why we have a lot of both white and black men and white and black women turning sodomite/lesbian*****That’s another discussion!
I hope y’all (the southern boy in me) catch my drift! Amen.
*****************IMPORTANT*********************
Prophetically, the women being in ministry is as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV:
(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
(35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Now, in Verse 35, Paul says let them ask their husbands–but today in the Black American Church and family as a whole–71% have NO husbands! NO husbands Y’all!!!!
Therefore It IS “A SHAME” to the Black Church and Family! IT IS A SHAME when our black women HAVE to run their homes and raise their children by THEMSELVES!
THE HOME AND IMMEDIATE FAMILY, HUSBAND, THEN WIFE, THEN CHILDREN IS THE 1ST MINISTRY THAT MUST BE DONE IN THAT ORDER FAITHFULLY BEFORE THE LORD BEFORE A MAN TAKES ON THE SERIOUS SPIRITUAL BUSINESS OF THE CHURCH OF GOD! THAT’S WHY IT IS RIDICULOUS TO ORDAIN TEENAGERS/AGE 20 SOMETHING MEN BECAUSE THEY ARE NOVICES!!!!!!
LOOK AT WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL says RIGHT NOW about the Black American church and the American Church as a whole:
1 Corinthians 4:14-16 KJV
(14) I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
(15) For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
(16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
LOOK AT VERSE 15 REAL CAREFULLY! DOES NOT THE AMERICAN CHURCH, BOTH BLACK AND WHITE AS A WHOLE HAVE TEN THOUSAND INSTRUCTORS, YET NOT MANY FATHERS—WE ARE FATHERLESS IN THE CHURCH AS A WHOLE!
WE HAVE CHURCH CONFERENCES GALORE, MEGA THIS, MEGA THAT, MEGA CHURCH AFTER MEGA CHURCH…..****BUT NOT MANY FATHERS, AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE LIE from the …“Roman Catholic Church fathers” –BIG DIFFERENCE!
“IT’s A SHAME!” By being A SHAME, THIS is really a JUDGEMENT/INDICTMENT against black American men–all of us–GOD held Adam ACCOUNTABLE and Adam was punished more severely than Eve!
It is NOT GOD’s PERFECT WILL for women to lead and have authority in the black Church–but the black men are ABSENT! AWOL! MIA! and worse case, DEAD! AS a WHOLE, there are UNREPENTANT BLACK MEN who have forsaken their callings to first be righteous men of GOD, then faithful husbands to their wives and then loving fathers to their children.
******************BIG QUESTION******************
ARE WE, (the discerning remnant who are a few, and I mean a few, good righteous men and the majority who are holy women) TO LET MORE LOST SOULS BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND HAVE EVEN “MORE BLOOD ON OUR HANDS”? GOD FORBID!!!!****Prophetically and for right now, GOD has sought for men TO make up the hedge and to stand in the GAP–This scripture applies to the black American church and really the American church as a whole RIGHT NOW, Ezekiel 22:30
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
WHY does GOD say I found NONE–The Whole USA (you and I–black, white, Jew, Gentile, Male, Female, Free, Bondmen) WE have aborted them–GOD sent MEN, but WE in the NAME of RIGHTS and the FREEDOM of CHOICE, ABORTED THEM!
Because the black men are AWOL, MIA, AND HAVE BEEN MURDERED BY ABORTION there is no hedge and no one standing in the gap before GOD–THERE HAS BEEN A BREACH! WE MUST REPENT and REPAIR THE BREACH in the black American Church and black family! Judgment starts at the house of GOD! IF, AND I MEAN A BIG IF, we get the black Church RESTORED and in order(It will take 40 years the way things are and I do not believe we EVEN have that long–WE, the REMNANT MUST HAVE A DAY OF PENTECOST and BE ENDUED WITH POWER JUST LIKE THE 120 in the UPPER ROOM!), then we can get the black family in order and RESTORED! First things first, WE must RESTORE the fathers, Malachi 4:6 KJV. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
NO FATHERS in the home means NO FATHERS in the Church and therefore we have a CURSE upon us! Look at the war accounts in the Bible and even throughout known world history up to our modern times with Rwanda, Sudan, Iraq under Sadam Hussein, when an invader wants to destroy a civilization or tribe, the conqueror destroys the strong males/seed and then castrates/turns the captured males into eunuchs to ABORT FUTURE GENERATIONS and the conquering nation RAPES/RAVISHES/ABUSES the women and children and takes them as SLAVES!
***************NEWS FLASH**********************
Satan is doing THIS IS RIGHT NOW and the result is anywhere from 45 million to 70 plus million ABORTED BABIES! The Devil, knowing himself that the hour is NEAR–the Devil and the Powers of Darkness is after the “Man-child”!
Satan and the powers of darkness used an evil Pharaoh in Egypt to attempt to abort Moses and Satan used a anti-Christ/King named Herod the Great in Judea in an attempt to Abort MESSIAH, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST! WE ARE CLOSE TO THE GREAT COMING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, because since January 22, 1973, Satan has used the USA–
*********************IMPORTANT*********
while the American Churches got off focus and denominations fought each other/split up/and argued over foolishness, Pastors and Denominations building their own kingdom, filling their guts and building bigger barns, and “rich” in goods–The American Church is symbolized by the man the LORD JESUS CHRIST mentioned in Luke 12:16-21 KJV
(16) And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
(17) And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
(18) And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
(19) And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.*****FALSE PROSPERITY GOSPEL RIGHT HERE******
(20) But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
(21) So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
****VERSES 20 & 21 TELLS US WHAT THE SON OF GOD, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST & GOD THE FATHER & THE HOLY GHOST THINK ABOUT THE “PROSPERITY GOSPEL”!!!!!******
***************REPENT***REPENT*****************
For the Past 35 and 1/2 years, This PARABLE IS THE FITS THE AMERICAN CHURCH AND A MAJORITY OF THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP WITH THIS “LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES” HAS TRICKLED DOWN INTO EVERY ASPECT OF AMERICAN SOCIETY! AND WE WONDER WHY WE DO NOT SEE PHYSICALLY THE CHURCH IN THE BOOK OF ACTS! NOT ONLY THIS ABOMINATION….WE, THE AMERICAN CHURCH ARE IN SIN AND WE NEED TO REPENT! THE MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN CHURCH HAS EVEN FALLEN FOR THE SECRET RAPTURE LIE–ANOTHER TOPIC!!
************REPENT****REPENT*****************
Our Churches and so called leaders (White, Black, Jew/Gentile)….DID NOTHING TO STOP ABORTION AND NOW…. WE HAVE CALIFORNIA, MASSACHUSETTS, AND SOON TO BE OTHER STATES LEGALIZING SODOMITE/LESBIAN MARRIAGES (meaning ALL CHRISTIANS HAVE BLOOD on their hands allowing this on OUR WATCH TOO!), our Government, Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches at the Federal, State, City, and Local levels on down have MURDERED and SHED INNOCENT BLOOD–
*****EDIFICATION*****BE ENCOURAGED ABOUT THIS****
BUT, and I MEAN A BIG BUT, PRAISE THE WONDERFUL NAME OF JESUS CHRIST! The Devil and the USA and any other nation that TRIES TOO—WILL NOT ABORT the Man-child–I believe the Man-child is the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14!
Ezekiel 22 is speaking to the Black American Church and family, and the American white majority church and family RIGHT NOW: Really if you look at Ezekiel 22, Verses 23-30 GOD is speaking to the sins in the American Churches as a whole, both black and white for the past 35 and 1/2 years since January 22, 1973 LANDMARK U.S. Supreme Court 7 to 2 Majority decision in Roe v. Wade to this current Christian generation! We are coming to the SOON close of 40 years of Roe V. Wade. It was 40 years before Israel left the wilderness to enter into the promised land. The American Church as a whole is in a wilderness because we have angered and provoked the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!
Numbers 32:13 KJV
(13) And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
Psalm 95:9-11 KJV
(9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
(10) Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
(11) Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
******WHAT WILL COME TO PASS, A PROPHECY TO THE AMERICAN CHURCH******************************
The Remnant Church is Joshua and Caleb (the Church symbolizes a woman–the woman that births the man-child first naturally and then spiritually) that was “born again” before January 22, 1973 and those that are 20 years and younger that were “birthed spiritually” after Roe v. Wade up to when this 40 years is up—WILL COME OUT OF THIS WILDERNESS and THEY will enter into a “Promised Land” of HOLY GHOST Power, Revelation Knowledge, Signs and Wonders and BE fully equipped with ALL 9 gifts of the Spirit as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12–The Church is going back to the Book of Acts-Hallelujah–this time instead of only Jerusalem, Judea…THIS THING WILL BE WORLD WIDE!!!!!!HALLELUJAH! But it will be a REMNANT, 100% definitely a Church that is “house to house” and “underground”! The visual carnal churches will be the “FALSE PROPHET” used by the beast to PERSECUTE AND KILL the REMNANT!
Remember in Joshua, the 12 tribes were led by Joshua along with Caleb to cross over the Jordan! Those in the Church today, born again before January 22, 1973 and since then, will perish and die if they do not REPENT and take on a Joshua/Caleb spirit—
See 2 Chronicles 7:14– “My people” are the CHOSEN BORN AGAIN SPIRIT FILLED WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB CHRISTIANS-WE ARE THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD–NOT THAT SECULAR APOSTATE NATION that calls itself Israel today–It’s no longer Jew by outward circumcision, but Jew by circumcision in the heart through the HOLY SPIRIT–The ONE NEW MAN, for Natural Jew and Spiritual Jew/Gentiles are now ONE through CHRIST JESUS! The following is the proof:
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Galatians 3:27-28 KJV
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
I have presented to the Body of CHRIST what the HOLY SPIRIT is saying to the Churches TODAY! We are IN PERILIOUS TIMES and they ARE ABOUT TO GET WORSE! WE MUST KNOW THAT WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT WE ARE IN THE FAITH….REMEMBER THESE WORDS from PAUL THAT SPEAKS TO US RIGHT NOW AND ESPECIALLY VERSE 27!!!!!!!!!
1 Corinthians 9:16-27 KJV
(16) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
(17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
(19) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
(20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
(21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
(22) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
(23) And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
(24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
(25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Sincerely,
Elder Grover W. Stephens, Jr.
True Believers Praise & Worship Fellowship, Inc.
Suitland, MD
Please note, I did not put those smiley faces on my disseration! Sorry.
Good question Lionel.
From the little bit of study I’ve done, the idea of a head covering had something to do with a shawl that would signify that the woman was married. Today we have the wedding ring. However, having said that I want to think more deeply about this question than I can right now. Let me get back later.
Wow Enoch,
You have some very interesting perspectives my friend. Do you believe God has “a black american church”? When I read Ephesians 2-4 I only see one church and body.
Lionel,
This a deep questioned that I will have to chime in on at a later time. I tend to hold to the same reference of the authority between husband and wives as well. I battle with this on a consistant basis becasue this is the type of environment that I grew up in.
I have a mother and a aunt that are ministers in their local churches. I have asked the questions many of times scriputrally and in conversation.
This was a awesome post brother.
A careful complementarian reading of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is distilled well in an interview posted today at Between Two Worlds.
Lionel, I think this is one of many topics where we are served as well by absorbing pastorally spirited “right answers” as we are by asking tough questions. 😉 The good intentions and sincerely loving works of the woman discussed in the post are only part of the picture. If she’s thumbing her nose at God’s intended gender order, or driven to do that stuff by a hero complex glorifying her own diligence and compassion, that’s a problem. But God help us, the same is true when anyone ignores Him, or exalts their self, in any area.
Hey Mike you said:
“Lionel, I think this is one of many topics where we are served as well by absorbing pastorally spirited “right answers” as we are by asking tough questions.”
What does that mean?
Let me also ask Mike.
1. How do I reconcile the word Paul uses in 1 Timothy 2 for authority which no Christian has over the other? So a man doesn’t even have this authority over a woman.
2. We talk a bunch about lower and higher critcism but we come to 1 Corinthians 11 and make that a cultural item but make this one a transcendent truth. Can you help me with this one?
3. Do you believe women can’t teach man at all? If so what would be your position on Worship Leaders who happen to be women?
I am not being combative but trying to understand where you stand before I can fully engage the conversation. Thanks a bunch Mike.
Good Afternoon and PRAISE the LORD!
Brother Lionel, on your question, “Does GOD have a Black American Church?”
GOD’s Perfect Will Says, NO! We are all ONE in CHRIST JESUS! The LORD’s Prayer is that the Body of CHRIST be ONE as HE and the FATHER are ONE! John 17:11, 21
and the Apostle Paul confirms this in 3 different times: Romans 10:12, Galatians 3:28, and Colossians 3:11.
PERMISSIVE WILL-But because of the sins of Slavery, racial discrimination, evil white clergymen using the Bible to justify slavery of Africans and STILL TODAY, a majority of whites purposely segregating themselves every Sunday and both races “comfort zones” is why we what we have today–A white Church with many, many, sects and a Black American Church with many, many, many sects! Pauls Letters address every church congregation today in one way or another–so NO ONE is exempt from NOT Knowing the TRUTH of the matter!
The Church in America…White, Black, and so on HAS GOT A LOT OF REPENTING, HEALING, and RESTORING TO DO BEFORE THE LORD APPEARS! This will only be through a Remnant, not a majority–Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
(13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many (the masses and false christians) there be which go in thereat:
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few(The REMNANT of GOD) there be that find it.
Joe,
My understanding of an inspired word is “God breathe,” if I’m mistaken about this please help me out! I also believe that every word in scripture is inspired for correction, instruction and knowledge. In 1 Cor. Paul plainly makes a distinction between his words and God’s! I’m not saying Paul’s words was not Godly or righteous, only that it was not expressed by the Spirit of God, but by the spirit of Paul!
The reason I say that is, if we look at the passage closely
1. Paul says I speak this by permission not commandment (V.6)
2. In verse 10 he says the Lord commands, not I (again making a distinction between his words and the Lord’s)
In verse 12 he says” to the rest speak I, not the Lord, (making another distinction)
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
(1 Cor 7:6-12)
I think it’s clear that Paul wants the reader to know what is a direct commandment from God and what is his advice or suggestion.
I know that all scripture is inspired and soveignly chosen for our benefit and instruction – That does not mean that every word spoken or act done in scripture is inspired! Example, the words satan spoke to Jesus during his temptation, they were indeed inspired by God to be written, but God did not move on satan as God’s mouth piece! Another example is the selection of the 12th Apostle in Acts by Peter with the lots. Do you think that was inspired of God? The recording of the event was inspired, but I don’t believe God moved on Peter to have Matthias chosen as the 12th and last Apostle! If that was the case, somebody’s numbers is off, Revelation 21:14 states there are twelve foundations for the wall of the New Jerusalem with the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb written on them! If Matthias was selected by God then there would be 13 Apostles! The Last Apostle was hand picked and chosen by God, which I believe is Paul! We must not confuse inspiration with recorded truth! It was true that these things happened, but everything recorded was not the design and will of God nor inspired of God! I hope I’m being understood, sometimes I don’t explain myself well! There are many examples in scripture of statements made by men that are not necessarily words from God. To rightly divide the word of truth is to understand which words are from God and which are from man! I know I’m gonna get jump for some of these statements, cause we have been conditioned to jump on any thought that goes against the status quo!
What doe’s this have to do with Paul’s writtings? The same principle applies, Paul is not God, though he is anointed, called chosen and divinely inspired, He is a man! When he tells us that this is from me and not God, He releases it from an imperative to a suggestion, advice or opinion! That’s not taken Paul’s sainthood away from him, that’s just putting things in there right perspectives. I love Paul, and thank God for him, but I follow Jesus and I was taught that the son’s of God are to be lead by the Spirit of God (not the Word of God), oh, oh…I’m starting something now! Let me quit while I’m safe!
Lionel-
The snippet you quoted was chiefly a reference back to the long response you had to my post explaining what about your blog chafed me (Is Jesus Serious?). If I may remind you, you wrote:
Just go to your favorite blogs and see are they apporaching their topics graciously or with sure conviction. I am saying I am only fully conviced on 1 Cor 15 and Romans 3:21-27. After that lets have at it. So I have never meant to mock but maybe there is a bit of satire/sarcasm in my titles and post. My questions are the same way. Most blogs don’t ask questions (though some of my are loaded) they state doctrine that are debatable as facts.
Frankly, it was largely meant to jab you back over the way I thought you had made assumptions about what I read online, why I read it, the value of didactic teaching on secondary issues, etc. I have generally been better helped and challenged by selectively reading linked content from Between Two Worlds, or biblical reflections posted by Team Pyro — or content from any of the other ten Christian blogs I have XML’ed alongside Black and Reformed — than the stuff I’ve been reading here recently. Not every careful, biblically grounded perspective shows up here to comment (while a lot of really iffy ones do); which brings up my second reason for my comment on this thread — I thought Kostenberger was pastorally spirited, careful, and biblically grounded (while many of the preceding comments on this thread seemed less so).
As to your numbered questions, they’re good ones, and I can see a confrontational tone being appropriate.
1. Kostenberger’s response to question 3 addresses that. In a nutshell, he argues that reading that word as referring to usurped authority doesn’t make good sense of the sentence of 1 Tim. 2:12, let alone the whole section of the letter addressing women’s roles.
2. To start, “Can you help me with this one?” rubbed me the wrong way, and I can hardly believe you wouldn’t feel the similarly if I threw it at you; if you were mocking my (perceived) inconsistency, please hold off in the future. Addressing the issue, though, I think that John Piper and Wayne Grudem make a good case for cultural specificity at CBMW’s 50 Crucial Questions (#32). Their reasoning makes sense, and I feel OK deferring to them, not having felt pressed to make a hard-core study of the issue myself.
3. I’m gonna have Piper and Grudem pinch-hit hermeneutically again on this one. What you really want to know, though, is where I stand on women’s roles in churches I would be present in. Leading worship, leading prayer gatherings, moderating group Bible studies, giving speeches and personal testimonies, speaking prophecies, administering care to the sick and needy — all of those, plus more, seem like valid areas of leadership. I think I’d draw the line at overseeing doctrinal teaching or church discipline.
As you can guess, I haven’t studied this stuff real carefully. I may change my mind, even with your next post. But I think the Bible speaks consistently about differences in men’s and women’s roles in both household and church. To close out, I want to note that it takes me a while to write up my posts, so I can’t make myself available for comment tennis. I hope you can be understanding about that. Your Remember the Time reminds me to ask you if you remember the time when…
+ you couldn’t crank out post text in twenty minutes?
+ blog commenting could suck time out of your work day?
+ you hadn’t yet spent years poring over hot-button Bible interpretation issues to forge thorough, independent views?
+ you were trying to recover from muddled non-Reformed influences, but hadn’t yet been burned by prickly Reformed divisiveness and hypocrisy?
Your brother,
Mike Odlyzko
Sorry you were rubbed the wrong way. Thanks for commenting.
MarvinMoses
I still respectfully disagree. There is, in my mind, a pretty huge distinction between what Paul was writing being inspried scripture and what Satan said to Jesus. If Paul wrote it I will take it as inspired from God.
Grace and Peace
Brother Enoch,
I see you continue to use the words permissive and perfect will. Though I understand what you are saying I have my nuances about the two words. In God’s soveriengnty and providence God permits or allows things to happen that suite his purpose. So even in what you deem permissive will it is still ultimatelly used to fulfill his purpose.
Brother Brian,
I fully concur with you! Amen.
Your statement, ” In God’s soveriengnty and providence God permits or allows things to happen that suite HIS purpose. So even in what you deem permissive will it is still ultimatelly used to fulfill HIS purpose.”
AMEN and AMEN! THIS MY BROTHER IS WHY HE IS GOD AND GOD ALONE AND HE SHARES GLORY WITH NO ONE! HALLELUJAH!
This is my last PROVOKING COMMENT ON THIS TOPIC:
So do we conclude from a “PERFECT WILL STANDPOINT” based on the Scriptures and the Scriptures ALONE that women are called, chosen and annointed in leadership capacities in the Body of CHRIST as mothers, helpmeets, one with the Men of GOD, most importantly one with their husbands who are “THE ELDERS”, submitting one to another.
BUT, women in ministry are NOT in “PERFECT WILL VIEW” to be seen as HEADS/ELDERS–Paul says this is “Church law” in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. I am not against any holy women of GOD–both the ecclesia or called out men and women need to come into ONE ACCORD with this–Case Example and the Greatest Example….Because before the day of Pentecost was fully come, the 120, the 11 original apostles then eventually Matthias were present along with the women, and Mary, the mother of JESUS…Acts 1:13-15.
AND Brothers and Sisters–WE AIN’T NO WHERE CLOSE TO THIS TODAY in American Churchdom! (AIN’T is in the dictionary, SMILE!)
If you look at the Virtuous Woman in Proverbs 31–She symbolizes the Church and the elder who is her husband is the LORD JESUS CHRIST! The virtuous woman “KNOWS” her place and “KNOWS” her HEAD is her HUSBAND/BRIDGEGROOM–A MAN. Amen.
I fully admit, permissive will is a controversial term. That’s when we when that we know in 100% faith that we have walked upright and done all that we can do righteously in our behavior/conversation before the LORD and “bad things are happening to us or all around us”–WE MUST TRUST and RELY on Romans 8:28 KJV, And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
From a perfect will standpoint I would agree…..
I am confused. I thought this was an opportunity for commentary upon the understanding of what the female pastor was doing. But somewhere along the way, the issue has turned to whether women should be pastors? Am I understanding the discussion correctly? I am not very bright, someone help me.
It was both NB.
1. This woman was funcitioning as a true shepherd by her acts of service
2. But many (I am still wrestling through this, but still have the conservative evangelical perspective) disagree or would even say she is in sin.
Bro. Lionel,
You asked what we would think if it were a man? The simple answer is that I personally would applaud his efforts, pray that God would strengthen him, and wish him well.
However, if you were getting at the legitamacy of the ministry that she was carrying out, then that’s where things get tricky.
There are several examples in scripture of those who were doing what seemed to be praiseworthy acts of ministry. However, in each case they were punished by God:
Saul
Saul (in I Samuel 10:8) was given instructions by Samuel to wait for him in Gilgal and that in 7 days Samuel would come down and offer burnt offerings and sacrifice peace offerings for him to the Lord. Saul, however, (in I Samuel 13:8-14) offered up a burnt offering himself, prematurely, and because of it lost an enduring kingdom.
David (and Uzzah)
David (II Samuel 6) desired to bring up the ark of the covenant from Baale-judah. It had been placed, by the Philistines, on a cart drawn by oxen. In transporting the ark David made two mistakes. According to the OT law, the ark was to be transported by the sons of Kohath (Numbers 3:30,31; 4:15; 7:9), using the poles prescribed in Exodus 25:12-15. But David left it on the cart used by the Philistines and used men who were not sons of Kohath. One of those men, Uzzah, upon seeing the ark about to tip over, reach out and touched it and lost his life.
King Uzziah
Because pride had filled his heart, King Uzziah (II Chronicles 26:16-22) forsook the prescription of God for offering incense on the altar of incense in the temple. Though he was warned by the priest to refrain from it, he didn’t listen and for that was struck with leprosy. He had to live in a separate house and could no longer go to the temple. He was even dishonered in death by not being able to be buried with the kings.
My point is simply this. All ministry and service, including roles, must be done according to God’s prescription. No one seems to get credit from God for just doing. He seems to want things done a certain way and by certain people. I know I used only OT examples, however, I’m not sure that that is highly significant.
As far as this particular lady, I hope that if she was wrong (which is yet in discussion here), that it was because of ignorance and not rebellion. We must remember that many a rebellious heart is, and has been, masked by good works.
Hope I added something to the discussion.