Okay here are the verses:
1 Corinthians 11
2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man
1 Corinthians 14
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
I don’t think I have struggled through an issue as much as this except maybe the “Baptism” of the Holy Spirit. I won’t debate that one anymore as I am convinced that when God put us in Christ through the Spirit we were given ALL WE NEED. But on to this topic.
Man I have been praying and praying through this and I just can’t sweep it under the rug. My foundation for this is found in 1 Timothy 2 and we all know the verse so I won’t take up bandwidth here. But here is my struggle. Paul allowed women to prophecy as long as they had their head covered. The way Paul uses prophecy in this letter tells me that it wasn’t to just be excepted but to be “weighed”. Then comes my problem found in 1 Corinthians 14 when Paul says:
“31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,”
This prophecy which is the same prophecy in 1 Corinthians 11 was for two reasons
1. Learn
2. Encourage
Now with my handy tools I realize that the word encourage is the Greek word “παρακαλέω” or “parakaleō” This is the same word which is found in 2 Timothy 4:2 and Titus 2:15 and was commanded for every believer to do in Hebrews 10:25. I also realize that prophecy was a “higher” gift as found in the order of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:
“27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.”
So here are the questions:
1. What is this prophecy found in 1 Corinthians 11
2. How is that Paul would allow a woman to prophecy which is a higher gift than teaching, in 1 Corinthians 11 but then in turn tell them not to teach in 1 Timothy 2?
3. If Prophecy included instruction and exhortation for learning and women were able to do that in 1 Corinthians 11 how is that they are learn in silence (1 Timothy 2) and remain silent (1 Cor 14).
4. Finally for kicks, if Paul tells us to seek and even “covet” (zeloo or zealous) prophecy why do we not pray for this in our local gatherings?
Now Lionel,
Why would you encourage me to write a blog when you’re taking up all the good topics? LOL!!!!!!!!
Lionel,
I like this post. I’m glad that you and others (including myself) are wrestling with these passages instead of focusing on one passage and dismissing others. Human theological systems like to present everything as cut-and-dry. But, Scripture is not always like that.
-Alan
Thanks BLD
Thanks Alan
BTW can I get a response from one of you brothers don’t leave me hanging!
Lionel,
Sorry… didn’t mean to leave you hanging.
1) In 1 Cor 14, “prophecy” appears to be related to “revelation” (see 1 Cor 14:29-30). We’re also told that the pupose of prophecy is the edify or build up the chruch, so its public. Beyond this (and what you’ve already pointed out), we’re told very little about prophecy in Scripture. We can infer different things, but we have to be careful not to take our inferences as Scripture.
I would add one more thing. OT prophecy is often equated with telling the future. Sometimes OT prophets would tell the future, but only to confirm the validity of their prophecies. The future telling was not the entire prophecy.
2) As I mentioned in your previous post, I think that context is key. In 1 Cor 11 and 14, Paul seems to encourage women (and all believers) to prophesy, speaking to the entire church so that the entire church is built up. There must be a different context in 1 Tim 2. I don’t know what that context is, because Paul doesn’t tell us what that context is.
3) Again, as I mentioned in a comment to your previous post, “be silent” is not a command for a total absence of talking. The speaking in tongues was to “be silent” by not speaking in tongues – that doesn’t mean he or she couldn’t talk in other ways. The same would be true for prophets and women.
4) Some do pray for and encourage others to speak during the meeting of the church (including but not limited to prophecies). Some church meetings even allow others (besides the scheduled teacher/preacher) to speak.
-Alan
Bro. Lionel,
Talk about a scriptural conundrum. Well, my take is as follows:
1. If I’m to develop a definition for the type of prophecy being discussed in I Corinthians and simply going to a lexicon doesn’t help, then I have to try to find some example(s) in the scriptures themselves. And since we’re looking at the New Testament church as our context, let’s look at a few examples in Acts:
Acts 11:27-30 “Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them named Agabus stood up and began to signify by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea. And this they did, sending it in charge of Barnabas and Saul to the elders.”
A few things we can observe. First, this prophecy came by the Spirit. This is a consistent rendering in all the translations I’ve looked up. Secondly, it was predictive in nature. It fortold a future event. Thirdly, it did serve to edify as it spurred the church to financially support one another.
Acts 13:1-4 “Now there were at Antioch, in the church there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who is called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.”
Again, we can observe: First, they were labeled by Luke as “prophets and teachers”. Secondly, the charge came from the Holy Spirit through them while they were “ministering to the Lord and fasting”. Thirdly, it seemed to be a confirming word as it came to spur them to a work for which they had already been “called” And it wouldn’t be a stretch to say that it served to edify.
Acts 15:32 “Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.”
Not much detail of the contents of the message nor if it was given in the form of an expositional form from scriptures or just a “speaking forth” from the Spirit. We do know that it encouraged and strengthened.
Acts 21:4,8-14 “After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem…On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'” When we heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, “The will of the Lord be done!”
Now, admittedly, this particular passage presents more questions than answers. First the message for Paul “not to step foot in Jerusalem” came from or through “the Spirit”. He went anyway. Did he disobey the Spirit? Was that truly a command or a warning? Was it a test, like the one given to Abraham? Secondly, this is the first mentioning of female prophetesses in the New Testament but they were all virgins. Is that a requirement? It’s mentioned as a fact of their disposition and the term is not applied specifically to any other women. Also, to whom did they prophesy? the church? individuals? Thirdly, after the dramatic demonstration by Agabus and the pleading of the congregation Paul still “would not be persuaded”. It’s hard to think that Paul was in disobedience since even their resolve was that “the will of the Lord be done”. Again, more questions than answers here.
Therefore, the only responsible answer I can give to question #1 (wow, all that for one question! LOL!) is that the nature of prophecy went beyond scriptural exposition (preaching). Their was an element of extra-biblical information. We normally view this as bad and dangerous. However, here it was or seemed to be well received. I believe that this is the purpose for the “judging” that is to take place in these matters. The prophecies that we are specifically told about gave specific instructions to specific situations. Only in the case of the famine prophecy did it immediately effect the whole church. Also, in Paul’s case, it seemed not to be authoritative in nature. This is especially hard for me to deal with because I have to ask, “How can something from the Spirit, not be authoritative?”. Talk about wrestling. But if that’s the case, then it will help to answer question #2:
If this type of prophecy is non-authoritative in nature, then it is easy to see how Paul could allow women to participate. The whole prohibition against women dealt with the issue of authority. The scriptures are authoritative. Teaching revolves around the scriptures. So perhaps that is a clue as to the difference.
As question #3, I would just add to my answer to question 2 to say that perhaps the categories (men to all, women just to other women and children, older women to younger women, etc.) would still apply. Even though he gave the instructions to the church collectively. In other words, I Corinthians 11 could be general instruction and chapter 14 and I Timothy 2 could be specific instruction. Although, Paul does seem to use husband/wife language or Greek words in I Timothy 2 rather than strict man/woman language.
Number 4 is easier for me to answer in that I believe that the immaturity of the church in general and the lack of biblical grounding prevents us from moving beyond the “elementary priciples”. I would love to be confident that God is speaking to me. However, after growing up in the Pentecostal denomination (COGIC) and seeing the many misuses and misapplications of the “gifts”, I’ve had to basically start over and I’m not as comfortable with extra-biblical revelations about anything.
Sorry for the long post but I hope this at least spurs further discussion, even if it doesn’t answer all the questions.
BLD,
1.I agree with your number 1
2. Number 2 I struggle with because no Christian has authority that word used in 1 Timothy 2 is never used anywhere else in the New Testament as far as I can see look it up in a lexicon to ensure what I am saying is true “authority”. But on from that if the gifts are in descending order in 1 Corinthians 12 then prophecy is a higher gift in the church as it relates to teaching and I believe this is what Paul was saying.
3. Where does it say that women can teach other younger men up to a certain age? I haven’t found that yet. Also the word their in 1 Timothy should be redered “I suffer not a wife to teach or have authority over a husband” it isn’t the generic word for “man” but I could be wrong again but this is what the lexicon says. But anyway it also doesn’t say older men teach the younger women.
4. I agree with point 4 and I have begun to pray for prophecy in our church. I don’t think tongues is needed due to the nature we all communicate in the same language.
Lionel,
Good discussion.
In regards to your answer for #4 and tongues… if you read 1 Corinthians 14, you’ll see that Paul encourages “edifying” speech when the church meets. Tongues (if uninterpreted) does not fall under the category of eidfying speech. I think it is okay to pray for tongues, but the context for speaking in tongues does not seem to be the meeting of the church. What is that context? That’s another question that I’m struggling with.
-Alan
Agreed Alan
Bro. Lionel,
Can you clarify your comment to my answer to number 2? That word is only used once but I’m not sure of the point you are making. Forgive me.
Also, are the gifts given in order of importance, occurance, or both? I’ve never been clear on this.
I’m more inclined to wonder if the subject of women teaching male children is more traditional than biblical. Does it matter at what age a boy was considered a man in Jewish culture? Also I guess that begs the question of older men teaching younger women.
I think that we agree on I Timothy 2 that the context or language may be a reference to the husband and wife relationship. Right?
Great discussion.
1. I was saying that no christian has authority over the next. That is it. Most people who argue this point are saying that the woman is not to have authority over a man but the same goes the other way. Nobody has authority over nobody. LOL. So a pastor/elder/deacon or anyone else in leadership doesn’t have authority so now we have to focus on the teaching part. Since I am there I am saying that the prophecy in 1 Cor 11 includes instruction and teaching and even admonishment.
2. I think importance or authority (not the person the word delievered) within the church. The apostles are the direct mouthpieces to write scripture, then comes the prophets…….
3. I don’t think the bible gives us that so who decides? And if there is liberty within a specific gathering then that opens the door for a whole heap of trouble.
4. Yes indeed which makes this harder for me.
My concern is that I am following the tradition of man and not the scripture. I am all for Church history but as our tradition stands today we have tossed out what we agree with and what we disagreed with as it relates to “church fathers” could this be another one? Many things such as infant baptism the “one true church” has been punted I want to stick to scripture alone on this and it is getting harder for me to make a 100% case for it the more I shed outside influence and focus on the text.
The problem is Paul says “she is not to teach” the “authority” part goes for all Christians. We are all brothers and no one has authority within the chuch accept the head of the Church which is Christ. So I thought I was convinced one way but after reading the text and following the arguments it is getting tough for me to take such a hard stance. So I really want to wrestle with the text provided within the scriptures.
This is a good discussion. A question that come to mind as I research this is Paul contradicting what he says? No. There is an explanation, although I don’t know what that is. It’s critical to know that Jesus Christ is the head, and He appoints who is to be where.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV)
I hate to use a non-scriptual example:
In a classroom people meet together on a regular basis. There has to be a person in charge to facilitate and give direction (all in the classroom are human beings but someone is neeeded to lead). That is the teacher’s duty. The teacher brings the lessons, and follows the curriculum that is set forth by the administrator who is in authority. Now imagine being a student in the class where everyone can come in and share along in the material they are all learning. Imagine hearing what someone else has gained in knowledge etc, and found insight on? How valuable is that to have a student give insight in on something that you may have been struggling with. The teacher has said it, but you didn’t really learn it until you were able to hear it from a student who’s learning just like you. Isn’t that which the student gave you higher than that what the teacher gave? It is the same thing, but your understanding really kicked in when the student said it. You learned and are encouraged. So let’s say that the administrator says only a man can be teacher in the classroom, although the classroom is filled with women and men. The teacher allows the women and men students to share. Is learning and encouragement taken away from because the teacher must be a man? No. So why would God restrict women from sharing in love prophecy that would edify, exhort and encourage the brethren. That’s higher gift to receive from, even though the sound doctrine is coming from the pastor-teacher who is a man. Jesus Christ is our Teacher, yet His compassion, exhortation, instruction, and comfort is higher gifts to receive. I hope you can see where I am coming from? I apologize for not using scripture, I thought this might be of help in maybe understanding why Paul would allow women to prophecy and not to teach. What do you think?
Karsten Miller
No not at all Karsten,
That is a pretty good take on this bro. I appreciate it. Actually it sounds really good. But let me ask the next question though. If you get a word directly from the Administrator to edify, build up and even instruct (which all prophecy does) don’t you become higher than the teacher though? So for example if the administrator tells one of the students, “hey I know the professor has a word prepared but I have something I want to say which has higher “authority” than your professor and I need you to tell the class this urgent message”. How would that fit into the scheme of things. That person then becomes a teacher not in position but from a directive from the authority.
Bro. Lionel,
Since I know that you like Piper (I do too I just don’t want anybody to know it, LOL) I know also that you’ve heard his definition of what the prophecy looked like in the New Testament. I also happened to listen to it for a second time last night at work. He doesn’t place the authority in the prophecy. In fact he says it is fallible, subject to testing and non-binding on the hearers. He said that we’ve only had two categories in which to discuss this issue: 1. True prophecies/prophets that are from God, that give infallible words that must be obeyed, and 2. False prophecies/prophets that are not from God and should be rejected. However, he says we must “create” a third category…well you probably know the rest. So therefore, as it pertains to this discussion, we must again define what the prophecy was so that despite it’s place on the lists and Paul’s admonishing that it should be desired over other gifts, we can get a harmonization of what appears to be a contradiction.
I know, but I can’t agree. The reason is the emphasis on the gift of prophecy throughout 1 Corinthians and then even in Ephesians 4. The very purpose of the Gift was to “build up the church to a full maturity”. These prophets are mentioned before evangelist and teachers but after prophets. It is funny that this list of gifts in Epheisans 4 directly mirrors 1 Corinthians 12 Check it out
Eph 4
1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. Evangelist
4 Shephers and teachers
1 Cor 12
1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. teachers
Now I don’t believe that this is a coincidence but I could be wrong. The same reason he tells the Corinthians these gifts were given is the same reason he told the Ephesians these gifts were given. If this gift was falliable it wouldn’t build up the church whatsoever. We could just discard everything said. I don’t know what the answer is but I don’t believe this is it. I believe the gift of prophecy was weigh more weighty than what we give it today and as a matter of fact Paul spends a great deal of time defending its importance in the body of Christ. And I can’t follow the Puritans who try to equate this gift to teaching. The bible doesn’t allow me to do that. So this gift is ALWAYS mentioned second to the gift of apostle and always before teaching. What do you think?
basically, you have to look at the greek context. one word in one part of the new testament means something different in another part of teh new testament.. that is where knowing past tense, present tense, indicative coem into play.we all know that. 1 timothy was for leadership in the church as is backed up in 1 timothy 3.
Really Sam?
Why don’t you share that with us then. Can you break out the greek verb tenses and tell us how 1 Timothy 2 correlates with leadership in the Church in 1 Timothy 3 so that I (and some of the readers of this blog) can be included in the “we all” portion of your comment? Thanks.
Sorry, Sam, but “past tense, present tense, indicative [mood]” may tell us how a verb is being used, but tense/voice/mood do not tell us what a verb or noun means.
Also, 1 Timothy 3 tells us how to recognize elders… is that for “leadership” – are only “leadership” supposed to recognize those who have the characteristics of elders? Seems like that Paul intended for Timothy to communicate that to the entire church.
-Alan
Bro. Lionel,
Since we’re both wrestling with this issue, I’m speak as one who is asking questions and not fully convinced myself. The Piper reference was for consideration. I’m not totally convinced that he’s right but I’ve had a hard time coming up with a proper response. (he compares it to the gift of teaching as well) As I said in my earlier post “How can something from the Spirit, not be authoritative?” And again, we do have to deal with what happened in Acts 21:4,8-14. Here’s what we know for sure:
1. Verse 4 – The people who spoke that Paul should not go up to Jerusalem did so “through the Spirit” (NASB). Look at the other bibles versions. I didn’t find a deviation from the claim that this instruction was from the Holy Spirit.
2. Verses 8-14 At Caesarea Paul received further (and rather dramatic if you ask me) warning as to what would happen to the man “who owns this belt” and Agabus started this warning with the words “This is what the Holy Spirit says”.
3. This warning comes from a man named Agabus. He is called a prophet in verse 10.
4. Though the people beg and “weep”, it doesn’t seem that anyone accuses Paul of sinning (this could just be speculation) which if the prophecies were authoritative, Paul would definitely be guilty of.
5. Despite these two occurances of what we would call prophetic utterances, Paul yet “would not be persuaded”. He is determined to go.
6. Even the people are resolved to say “The will of the Lord be done!”
So twice the Holy Spirit has spoken through men/women what appears to be first a commandment and then secondly a warning. So I have to ask you, if these were prophetic utterances (I can’t see otherwise), and they were authoritative (as you say they must have been), then did Paul sin by going to Jerusalem anyway? Or is it possible that these weren’t authoritative or binding?
Bro. Lionel,
I forgot to ask a few other questions.
You stated: “If this gift was falliable it wouldn’t build up the church whatsoever. We could just discard everything said.”.
(BLD)I would tend to agree with you and given that you don’t agree with the comparison to teaching, it’s hard to resist making it. But what about that? Our teaching, preaching, praying, witnessing, singing, studying, etc. is all fallible and yet we are told to do all to “edify one another”. Why would prophecy be any different? And what about the other gifts? Would you consider any of them infallible? (administrations, helps) Now if so, then forget just this gift, we’re not only falling short, WE’VE FALLING AWAY!
Hey disregard the fallible part, other than if it is from God then it is not falliable. But to Paul I don’t they were saying “hey the Holy Spirit is saying don’t go” I believe the Holy Spirit told them what was going to happen and then didn’t want Paul to go.
On to your second point, I still think the gift is higher in the Body of Christ. Falliable or not. Prophecy as it is describe in Corinthians not only contains teaching but if from God direct instruction that was not written in Scripture (which I believe wouldn’t contradict scripture either today). However if women are allowed to prophesy and prophecy is higher than other gifts besides apostles how is it then that we are so dogmatic with 1 Timothy 2. Not to mention James say “I suffer that you all not become teachers” but Paul tells us to “covet” prophecy!
Bro. Lionel,
Verse 4 plainly says that they told Paul “not to set foot in Jerusalem” and that they told him “by the Spirit”. If in fact it was only because they knew what would happen, then they would have been acting out of fear. But God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. I don’t see how it could possibly be just a case of “we don’t want you to go” by the Spirit. But its debatable for sure.
Perhaps we should focus on the function/purpose of prophecy in the body. In no way do we see the gift/s as normative methods of discerning the will of God or governing the daily affairs in the lives of those in the Church. For God to use a woman in an EXTRAordinary way (which I believe a gift of prophecy would be, not normative) would be consistent with Paul not suffering them to teach which was/is the normative way of discerning the will of God and governing the daily affairs in the lives of those in the Church. In no way should someone’s “God told me we/you should” be the basis of any decision that we make regarding the entire body, let alone ourselves as individuals. But the teaching of scripture should be. Despite the high position Paul or we might give any particular gift, I think it’s function should also be a guide as to how we understand it’s relation to other gifts.
BLD you said:
Perhaps we should focus on the function/purpose of prophecy in the body. In no way do we see the gift/s as normative methods of discerning the will of God or governing the daily affairs in the lives of those in the Church.
Brother that flies in the face of Ephesians 4, Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12 and so forth. The very purpose of gifts are to govern the daily affairs of the church. That was what they were given for. The problem is we have made a false dichotomy between the gifts don’t seem not to exist. But this could be me, but gifts such as: mercy, giving, teaching, administration, words of wisdom and the like was to “govern” the daily activity of the church. The very purpose they were give was “to build up the body”.
I am saying the people in Acts 21 reacts the same way as the Elders in Acts 20.
36 And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. 37 And there was much weeping on the part of all; they embraced Paul and kissed him, 38 being sorrowful most of all because of the word he had spoken, that they would not see his face again. And they accompanied him to the ship.
This flows right into 21?
The other problem is that prophecy was to be coveted within the church and I don’t believe it to be as “extraordinary” as we perceive it to be. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11 says “when a woman prophesies or prays” If it was so extraordinary I think the scriptures would have emphasized it that is why I may agree with Pipers stance a bit but I need more biblical support not commentary.
Bro. Lionel,
The “areas” I was refering too were not concerning spiritual matters but I was talking about normative decision making. For example, who to marry, what to put on for my interview today, whether to say hi or hello to begin a witnessing encounter. Many people expect to get this type of information or clues from a “word of prophecy”. What things we see given as examples in Acts were of a more significant status than these matters.
And by the way, authentic spiritual gifts must be extraordinary in some way if we are to distinguish them from the false “signs and wonders” that Christ states will be done by false prophets and the antichrist. And I think Paul feeling the need to address them, to emphasize them and the fact that some believe that we as Christians can get along fine without them, as a reason to view them as extraordinary. When John the Baptist sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one, he sent back word of the extraordinary things that they saw as proof. Maybe this is just a matter of semantics or personal opinion. Great discussion!
BLD you said:
They must be extraordinary as so to distinguish between the false prophets. I actually disagree but here is why:
We we be able to distinguish between the false prophets and true people of God because the false prophets signs and wonders and so forth will be used to build them, while the people of God will be used to build up the body of Christ. Thus Paul’s discussion of them in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians 4. We won’t be able to distinguish by extraordianry because God will allow the antichrists to do such signs but in turn they will not build the body up bu themselves exalting themselves (Creflo, Benny Hinn, Juanita Bynum, Jesse Duplantis and so forth) but to the true people of God with these rather ordinary and some being extraordinary will be used to exalt Christ. For example every time something miraculous occured Peter, Paul, and others always pointed them to Christ and didn’t ask for seed money or accolades. God bless brother.
I am headed to Austin for the holiday. You stay blessed BLD, I am loving the dialogue also. Hopefully God will give us an opportunity to meet face to face. If so dinner is on me homie! If not see you in eternity where this things will be worked out for sure. Love you bro.
Bro. Lionel,
Hey man thanks for the kind note. I hope the trip is refreshing.
By the way, I have to vindicate you and be faithful to the text. What I’m referencing is Acts 21:4. I believe you were right to suspect that what was revealed to the disciples concerning Paul suffering in Jerusalem, was indeed the reason why they told him not to go. I was listening to the “Daily Audio Bible” and he was reading from Acts 20:22-23 where Paul says, “And now, behold, BOUND BY THE SPIRIT, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit solemnly testifies TO ME in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me.” Now that has to influence the attitude of those in Acts 21:4 so I stand corrected. Ok, back to the essence of the discussion in my next comment. This is some truly edifying wrestling going on here.
If I may share some things,
One, from my resource list on my site, here’s an article on the issue which may be beneficial on the issue. From another Reformed Charismatic and a debate between him and another on whether sign gifts—especially those of prophecy–are necessary in the church.
Click to access Debate.pdf
Secondly, No offense to anyone, but I’ve always wondered why it seems no one has ever dealt with this text when it comes to prophets:
1 Corinthians 14:28-38
28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[a]
Now, personally, when I look at that, obvious to me that there were PROPHETS in the congregation…..and that they were not of the same stature as that of AGABUS, since he was on a NATIONALLY KNOWN LEVEL and whatever he said CAME TO PASS/100% accurate. No one seemed to have to weigh what he said. When he spoke, THEY ACTED without QUESTION….Acts 11:27-30
As another wisely phrased, “just as there were members of the body in Corinth who apparently were frequently used in the gift of the interpretation of tongues who were known as “interpreters,” so there were those who were frequently used in the gifts of prophecy and revelation who were considered “prophets.” These would not be prophets in the same class as Old Testament prophets or even someone like Agabus in the New Testament (see Acts 11:28, Acts 21:10). Rather, their ministries would have been limited to their local church bodies.”
“Although there might be more than three such prophets present at a church gathering, again Paul placed limitations, specifically limiting prophetic ministry to “two or three prophets.” This again suggests that when the Spirit was giving spiritual gifts in a gathering, more than one person might yield to receiving those gifts. If this is not so, Paul’s instruction could result in the Spirit giving gifts that would never be enjoyed by the body, as he limited how many prophets could speak.”
“If there were more than three prophets present, the others, although restrained from speaking, could help by judging what was said. This also would indicate their ability to discern what the Spirit was saying and possibly imply that they could have yielded to the Spirit themselves to be used in the very gifts that were manifested through the other prophets. Otherwise they could have only judged prophecies and revelations in a general way, by making certain they were in agreement with revelation God has already given (such as in Scripture), something any mature believer could do.”
“Paul stated that these prophets could all prophesy sequentially (see 1 Cor. 14:31) and that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32), indicating that each prophet could restrain himself from interrupting another, even when given a prophecy or revelation from the Spirit to share with the congregation. This shows that the Spirit might give gifts at the same time to several prophets present in a gathering, but each prophet could and should control when his revelations or prophecies were shared with the body.”
“This is also true concerning any utterance gift that might be manifested through any believer. If a person receives a message in tongues or prophecy from the Lord, he can hold it until the proper time in the gathering. It would be wrong to interrupt someone else’s prophecy or teaching to give your prophecy.”
When Paul stated, “you can all prophesy one by one” (1 Cor. 14:31), remember that he was speaking in the context of prophets who had received prophecies. Some have unfortunately taken Paul’s words out of context, saying that every believer can prophesy at every gathering of the body. The gift of prophecy is given as the Spirit wills.”
Curious why, however, the prophets in the Congregation of Corinth had to have theirs weighed or even with the risk of being ignored/being challenged by others unlike Agabus, who seemed to have 100% accuracy and was always heeded (Such as when he uttered a PREDICTIVE PROPHECY to PAUL:
Acts 21:10-11.
Moreover, regarding this issue of 100% accuracy, what do you do with verses on prophecy, seeming to describe how things such as NT prophecy was not infallible but had to be judged by others (1 Cor 14:29) was sometimes a mixture of good and bad (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and was such that it could even be despised – presumably because of its eccentricity (1 Thessalonians 5:20)?
If prophets have the same level of authority in the NT as those in the OT, then what do you do with individuals such as Paul who IGNORED, who seemed to have freedom to disregard even the best prophets as seem when he disregarded Agabus and went on to Jerusalem since in his heart he already decided that was what God wanted and not even the believers who took Agabus’s prediction to mean he shouldn’t go could not stop PAUL? (Acts 21:10-14)
Moreover, when it comes to prophecy, if prophecy is for edification, encouragement and exhortation and NOT PREDICTIVE but FORTHTELLING–BASED IN SCRIPTURE (as some say), they why would it be wrong to call someone a prophet who does these things? Surely someone such as Judas and Silas would fit the bill since they “said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers’ Acts 15:32-34.
Are they really on the same level as those in the OT or even those in the BOOK OF REVELATION?
Was this necessary an issue of 100% accuracy? And in the usage of prophet, is it biblically consistent to say that the usage of the term “prophet” WAS ALWAYS IN THE SAME SENSE as it was with others? Or could it be used in a looser term?
Personally, I’m for the concept of a CONGREGATIONAL PROPHET. As I have come to believe (with reference included), “It seems quite plain from a consideration of Acts and 1 Corinthians 14:29-32 that the New Testament gift of prophecy is quite different to the Old Testament conception of ‘prophet’ – The new prophets can be expected to be active within church congregations and not necessarily in any way famous beyond that. One of the difficulties for us in understanding the conception of prophet in our day is partly due to the fact that the Greek word translated prophet (propheteis) is really much broader than the English word ‘prophet’, which tends to have quite a specific ring. Truthfully, the Greek word can – just as easily – mean ‘inspired speaker’, or ‘encouraging speaker’, and some of the New Testament references don’t necessarily go beyond that.”
And to be clear, of course the GIFT OF PROPHECY AND THE OFFICE are two different things. You don’t need one to have the other. For example, not all who prophesy are prophets. Many Christians prophesied but the office of prophet was next to that of apostle and was an itinerant and probably full-time ministry. According to one of the references I had, Paul says bluntly “not all are prophets” ( 1 Cor 12:28-31) yet seems to imply that the gift of prophecy can be sought by most Christians. (1 Cor 14:1-5)
“Phillip the evangelist had four virgin daughters who prophesied but they are not called prophets. (Acts 21:9) Women prophesied in Corinthians but were explicitly not to be given authority in the Corinthian church. ( 1 Corinthians 11:3-5, 14:34,35) Thus for some reason these women who prophesied in that church were not given the office of prophet in that church. The gift and the office are different.”
To add some more things,
At one point, it was said elsewhere to me that prophecy was all about forthtelling, BASED on the verse dealing with how prophecy is for edification, encouragement and exhortation in I Corinthians 14…..and that that therefore means that all prophetic words dealing with a PREDICTIVE NATURE are invalid since much of what is seen today on TBN/other places involving spiritual abuse include such things.
I disagree, seeing that I’ve experienced predictive prophetic words myself (or more appropiately termed “WORDS OF KNOWLEDGE”)….in light of that, some scriptures to consider:
1 Timothy 1:18-19
18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
1 Timothy 4:11-14
11Command and teach these things. 12Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
2 Timothy 1:3-6
Encouragement to Be Faithful
3I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers. 4Recalling your tears, I long to see you, so that I may be filled with joy. 5I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also. 6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-24
19(A)Do not quench the Spirit;
20do not despise (B)prophetic [a]utterances.
21But (C)examine everything carefully; (D)hold fast to that which is good;
22abstain from every [b]form of evil. 23Now (E)may the God of peace (F)Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your (G)spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, (H)without blame at (I)the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Does anyone have any thoughts on these paticular things?? Moreover, what are anyone’s thoughts on this as it relates to the prophetic? Is the prophecy this verse is describing of a PREDICTIVE nature, or simply encouragement of one’s giftings that are apparent?
One of my brothers in Christ (Jessie Phillips, from “Resurgence”, who is also a Reformed Charismatic) that I’ve talked to had this to say (As he said it best when listening to Him……and if anyone’s interested, let me know so I can point you toward where to find him at):
“In order to answer the question of whether prophecy is the same as teaching and preaching, there would need to be some examples of New Testament authors using the word this way. It must be the New Testament authors’ use, not the semantic range, that shape our theology of prophecy.
I think that the New Testament authors to mean something different than preaching when they speak of prophecy, and I will list a few examples. I hope to write a brief paper on this later, examining all of the data more exhaustively, but a shorter version will have to suffice here.
Romans 12:6-7 : “If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;”
Here, when Paul mentions prophecy, I don’t think he means preaching-teaching, because he mentions teaching separately from prophecy. If prophesying were the same as preaching-teaching, this would be redundant. Also, the phrase, “in proportion to his faith” seems to imply some level of risk with respect to the validity of the prophetic utterance, something we would hardly tolerate in preaching the known truth of the gospel. In this passage the prophetic utterance contains unknown projections upon the future, requiring risk and faith, contrasted with the teaching gift that contains utterances about the past and known events surrounding Christ and his accomplishment on the cross.
Luke 1 (Zechariah): Luke records that Zechariah prophesied over Jesus. But this was not preaching or teaching, it was a prophetic song about the life of Christ. It certainly references Old Testament prophecies about Christ, but does not seem to be an example of the preaching-teaching gift, which would prohibit us from equating prophecy with preaching-teaching based on this passage. In fact, in this instance, prophecy seemed to involve divine revelation that was beyond scripture, not derived from it. Obviously, scripture promised a coming Messiah. But it was not until Zechariah received the additional revelation that this particular child of Mary was in fact the Messiah that he prophesied based on this new revelation. He wasn’t expounding on scripture and preaching, he received instant inspiration and revelation, and “filled with the Holy Spirit” began this spontaneous prophecy, quite different than the preaching-teaching gift to which prophecy is at times equated.
Agabus, the prophet:
One of the most well known prophets, and best examples of a New Testament prophet was Agabus. There are two occasions in which he prophesied. If these two examples of Agabus prophesying involved him preaching and teaching God’s word, then we would have an example supporting the cessationists desire to equate the two gifts. But, Agabus did not preach or teach God’s word when he prophesied. Rather he:
a) predicted a famine (Acts 11:27-30), and
b) predicted Paul’s arrest (Acts 21:10-11)
This hardly sounds like a pastor-teacher fulfilling his mandate to preach and teach by “prophesying.” It sounds more like a prophet predicting things that God shows him will happen. So in Agabus we find evidence that a prophet partakes in different activities than a pastor-teacher, implying that the two gifts are not synonymous.
– Prophecies made about Timothy
– The Ephesians 4 gifts
– Joel’s promise of “women preachers” (Joel 2:28-29)
– Four unmarried female preachers (Acts 21:
Prophecies made about Timothy: In 1 Timothy 1:18 Paul charges his young friend to persevere and remain faithful, “in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you.” We learn from the second half of verse 18 that someone had prophesied that Timothy would wage good warfare and hold faith and a good conscience. Was Timothy’s experience with prophecy akin to preaching? It doesn’t seem so.
The content of the prophecy in this instance was not scripture, as it would be in preaching. The subject of the revelation was some previously undisclosed details about Timothy’s future. As Paul says, the prophetic revelation was “about you [Timothy].”
So Paul’s experience with prophets in this instance consisted not of preachers proclaiming God’s word, but some prophet receiving information about Timothy’s future and reporting that extra-Biblical revelation to Paul and Timothy for his edification.
Ephesians 4 Gifts: In Ephesians 4 Paul mentions that God has given certain gifts to the church. In this list he mentions apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
This verse is similar to Romans 12 (see previous post) in that it differentiates prophets from teachers, implying a difference in the gifts of prophecy and preaching/teaching. Is prophecy the same as preaching and teaching? Then why are do prophets and teachers constitute two different offices, if they are precisely the same gift?
Women preachers in Joel 2?
In Joel 2:28-29 there is a prediction of what will happen when the Holy Spirit comes at the day of Pentecost. One of the things that will happen is that “sons and daughters will prophecy.” Paul was very careful to articulate that he did not “permit a woman to teach” but to “remain quiet” (1 Timothy 2:12) in the assembly. Yet it is very clear that women were permitted to prophesy. Joel predicted that sons and daughters, male and female servants all prophesying would be one of the indicators that the Spirit had come at Pentecost.
Was Paul, by forbidding women to prophesy, trying to reverse or contain the scope of the Pentecost outpouring? Or, on the other hand, is it possible that a woman could actually prophecy but not teach, given that these two gifts are different in terms of functionality and authority? The latter is more likely, especially given the fact that Paul acknowledges without correction that women are prophesying in Corinth (1 Cor 11:5 [see Footnote 1] ) and tells all believers, men and women, to earnestly desire to prophesy (1 Cor 14:1).
Philip’s daughters:
Sticking with the theme of women prophets, we see in Acts that Philip the evangelist “had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied” (Acts 21:9). These four women had a notable prophetic ministry, given the fact that it warranted a mention in Scripture. Luke obviously saw their ministry as substantial and made a brief comment on it. It would seem far fetched that these four unmarried daughters had profound teaching and preaching ministries. Yet, this is what the cessationist understanding of prophecy would force us to conclude.
Church at Antioch:
When the Antioch church was formed in the persecution after Stephen’s death, there was a certain order with which Jerusalem sent aid, which proves to be instructive to our discussion here (see Acts 11).
1. Jerusalem sent the apostle
2. The apostle recruited the teacher
3. Jerusalem sends the prophets
In step one, upon hearing of the “great number” (Acts 21:11) of new converts in Antioch, Jerusalem sent Barnabas to establish this church (Acts 21:22) and provide apostolic oversight.
Second in the order of events was the establishment of sound doctrine through the teaching and preaching gift of Paul (Acts 21:25). Thirdly, after the apostolic and teaching gifts had been established, Jerusalem sent prophets, including Agabus, to perform prophetic ministry for the church (Acts 21:27), saving the church from the effects of an impending famine.
What is the point here? If prophecy and preaching are the same thing, why would Jerusalem have considered it necessary to send prophets to minister even after Paul’s teaching had been established “for a whole year” (Acts 21:25). If Paul had been prophesying (i.e. preaching) for a whole year, why send prophets?
Of course the prophets came to fulfill some task that was missing in the excellent teaching of Paul. What was missing? Agabus predicted a famine. What was missing was some divinely revealed, yet extra-Biblical knowledge that never could have been arrived at from studying scripture, as diligently as Paul was doing that.
This is what prophecy is: receiving revelation that cannot necessarily be arrived at through studying scripture, and then proclaiming that revelation to others for their edification, building up, sustenance and protection.
However you choose to define it, I think we can be sure on one thing: prophecy is not the same thing as preaching.
Again, from what I see, the text makes explicitly clear that in worship services that prophets were in the congregation AND Their were regulations on how they were to operate, just as there were for those interpeting tongues. No one can deny that. Those who were regularly used by the Spirit in the exercise of the gift of prophecy in the local congregation are also called prophets (1 Corinthians 14:29,32,37)……and IMHO, there is nothing to suggest that “the prophets” in Eph. 2:20 is an exhaustive reference to all possible prophets in the church. Otherwise, it contradicts the instructions for how revelation from those who are considered “prophets” should go.
If you’d like, consider investigating these Brah…
…
Click to access The%20Foundational%20Gifts%20of%20Ephesians%202,20.pdf
Again, from what I see, the text makes explicitly clear that in worship services that prophets were in the congregation AND Their were regulations on how they were to operate, just as there were for those interpeting tongues. No one can deny that. Those who were regularly used by the Spirit in the exercise of the gift of prophecy in the local congregation are also called prophets (1 Corinthians 14:29,32,37)……and IMHO, there is nothing to suggest that “the prophets” in Eph. 2:20 is an exhaustive reference to all possible prophets in the church. Otherwise, it contradicts the instructions for how revelation from those who are considered “prophets” should go.
If you’d like, consider investigating these Brah…
…
Click to access The%20Foundational%20Gifts%20of%20Ephesians%202,20.pdf
For references On Congregational Prophets:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/prophets.htm
On the issue of understanding the authority of prophecy,
I looked around Justins site for a while and found that God talks to Justin regularly.
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue74b.htm (from others dealing with the argument that Paul seemingly disobeyed the prophecy from Agabus and that he still came out good, therefore meaning that prophecy is NOT authorative but testable and unless it confirms with the inner witness of the believer, it’s not to be taken seriously—-and that sometimes, people’s perception of the prophetic can be off)
Also, from another Reformed CHarismatic on the issue—very balanced, IMHO.
http://mymiscellanies.blogspot.com/2006/10/gospel-driven-prophecy-understanding.html
In light of Ephesians 2:20, it is clear that Prophecies are never raised to the level of inspired text, because Paul instructs that they should be tested, indicating they are ad hoc in nature. In light of Ephesians 2:20, it’s clear that some included new revelation that was foundational to the church. Scripture identifies a number of prophets (eg. Acts 13:1, Acts 15:32, Acts 19:6, Acts 21:8), yet never records their prophecies which suggests they were personal revelations directed at a particular person or group, and therefore not universally applicable (eg. Acts 21:10-11). They may also have simply been restatements of truth that had already been revealed2.
The early church understood the prophecy in Joel 2:28-30 as being fulfilled. The fulfilment of this prophecy and the language of 1 Corinthians 14, implies that prophesying is available to all, which is consistent with what is described elsewhere in the New Testament (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, Romans 12:6).
On Ephesians 2:20, This verse states that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The Greek construction indicates that these are two distinct groups: apostles and other prophets. This implies that the church was in fact partly built on the foundation of the non-apostolic prophets. Therefore, affirming that non-apostolic prophets were error-prone results in an untenable position.
However, this does not mean that ALL PROPHETS ARE FOUNDATIONAL. The prophets at Corinth and Thessalonica as well as other local churches founded by Paul were second generation Christians and were not witnesses to Christ’s resurrection. Non-foundational prophets were those who proclaimed truth that had already been revealed, or proclaimed prophesies of a private and personal nature, regarding practice rather than new revelation.
One could also add that the foundational prophets discussed in Ephesians 2:20 were not necessarily those in the Book of Acts, but those in the OT PRIMARILY. I’m reminded of how everything in the OT and during Jesus’s time THAT BUILT UP THE FAITH OF BELIEVERS was also built upon the prophets PRECEDDING HIM:
Matthew 5:17
[ The Fulfillment of the Law ] “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Luke 16:16
[ Additional Teachings ] “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Apart from those prophets in paticular, who was it primarily that founded the doctrine of those in the NT Church? Was it not APOSTLES PRIMARILY WHO’S WORD WAS ABOVE QUESTION? Surely, if it was all those who were prophets, then the INSTRUCTIONS IN I CORINTHIANS 14 would be invalid with having to have a prophets words WEIGHED.
As my friend Sam said on the issue (from HEAT/LIGHT), “the Apostles recognized the authority of their own teachings and writings as the very words of God. Paul commands the church in Thessalonica to receive his words “…not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13), and points out, as was the case with denying the words of the Old Testament prophets, that anyone who disregards his words “disregards not man but God” (1 Thessalonians 4:8). Others are punished for disregarding the message of the Apostles; “If anyone refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonians 3:14)
Also, in 2 Peter 3:15-16, Peter equates Paul’s letters with “the other Scriptures.” Further, Acts 5:3-4 & 21, implies that lying to an Apostle is equivalent to lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus God himself!
The New Testament is made up of the writings of the Apostles (or of those under their authority) because it is THEY, not the New Testament prophets, who are the authoritative messengers of God during that time. And since to be in the office of New Testament Apostles you had to have personally experienced the living or physically resurrected Jesus, that office (in the New Testament sense of being an authoritative messenger of Jesus) is now closed, thus no one can any longer speak the very words of God to his people, except in that they are rightfully dividing His written word (the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles) in the Scriptures.”
Sup G?
Righter sees you are making up for lost time-good to see you back in the swing of dissertation writing! lol
How you been?
Meant to say, Righter, that G is doing just fine. Hit me up via email sometime where we can talk….or hit me up by phone (404-290-2023) so we can chat. It’d be easier for me to discuss more in-depth how I’ve been
On the rest of the thread, though, I have a question.
Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.
Romans 16:12-14/ Romans 16
Though I understand the passages on women/teaching, this has always been something that has struck out to me. For when I consider the role of mothers with their sons, I cannot help but think about it is never a matter of serving—which in itself can be considered another form of teaching since it’s teaching a principle by demonstration even when words are absent (if the passage of teaching being forbidden for women is to be taken in the ABSOLUTE sense of the word)………but I also remember how mothers have had times where they speak into the lives of their sons and check them with authority, whether in admonishment or rebuke in saying things like “Boy, have you lost your mind? Stop that foolishness”. That said, I cannot help but wonder what the relationship was like between Paul. Does anyone else have any thoughts/
Moreover, if I Corinthians 11 and I Timothy 2 is not just “cultural”, I still wrestle with the thought of where to draw the line. tHe church at Rome was instructed not only to greet one another, but explicitly—“with a holy kiss.” You find This command not only once, but 5 times in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:26 and 1 Peter 5:14.)…..& if you’ve ever been to Europe, they seem to have no problem expressing it in what seems to be a most GODLY WAY.
Some will even say ‘Well, that was simply cultural” yet in the passages dealing with not permitting a woman to teach a man, they’ll swear that any “cultural” are invalid but still argue on the basis of Scripture (I Timothy 2 & various others), The same goes for those who are for women in the pulpit and who yet ignore this passage also or other passages in Scripture…….& the repeated emphasis/ease which Paul commanded it may say something about whether the mentality against it is ofen based on PERSONAL BIAS/DISLIKE and double standards than Scripture. Why is it less of something to harp on than female ministers?