Every once and awhile I like to write something provocative. I want to know what do you guys (and gals) think about a couple watching pornography in the context of their own bedroom, both parties agreeing and using the “wedding bed is undefiled” as a defense for such a position. I would like to hear all sides while not letting anyone know where I stand (Tyris knows, but that is about it). So give me some good stuff. Here is what I don’t want to hear:
1. Be in the world but not of the world (this is a wack catch all that is misused more than Eric Dampier in the paint)
2. Flee Sexaul Immorality, well you can use it but come with the good stuff. If you use this verse alone, I will have to say, you can’t watch any television where two people are engaging in any type of explicit or implicit sexual activity and you best not listen to a love song that has sexual implications and the person singing and being sung to are not married. So that is about 99% of t.v, movies and music today.
3. Any other catch all verses. Give me some good philosophical and biblical arguments, I put the two disclaimers to make it good.
God bless and remember to keep it edifying!
“Here is what I don’t want to hear:”
Okay, how about these?
Never a borrower nor a lender be?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive?
Make love, not war?
Okay, cereally speaking, I’ve never really thought about this question.
But, I’d like to lump related issues in there while we have our thinking caps on.
1. What about a married couple videotaping their … um … woo-hoo?
2. What about role playing?
3. What about woo-hoo in anything other than the “missionary” position?
4. What about voyeurism and/or exhibitionism?
I’m sure many will say something along the lines of “as long as both of the marriage partners are willing participants, it’s hard to argue against it.”
That’s my general default position, but the pornography one is a bit more problematic for me since the production of the pornographic material is in itself a sinful activity (assuming it’s not the filming of a married couple).
( And He clothed ( covered) them )
And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness. 24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Gen 9:20-24
Even before the law, godly men understood the danger of videoing the intimacy which is to be confined between the two exclusively .
During the law, God addressed this issue repetitively and completely, in Lev 18-20.
The Apostles have echoed this principle;
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 2Thess 4:2-5
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
This is where the business takes you, when the Spirit of God, is not profoundly involved in your intimacy, because the culture in which you live, has kicked the door to the bedroom in and has perpetuated the sin of Ham. Looking on another’s nakedness!
It;s you , her and God, alone!
I actually like exclusionary clause #2 — Flee sexual immorality. We are WAY too lax in what we watch and listen to — so maybe we should indeed NOT be watching or listening to 99% of the tv, movies & music. We are to guard our hearts and I think we make very little effort to do so, nor do we sometimes even recognize when we are leaving our hearts out there in the free-for-all called secular media. If we watch everything just as the world does, what makes us separate when it comes to what we feed our spirits?
Regarding the original question, I would think that the use of pornography would be problematic in that you are introducing sexual imagery of a third-party into your marital relationship. According to Phil 4:8 we are to think on things on things that are pure, of virtue etc. I believe that would exclude viewing and thinking of sex between other people.
I know married men and women alike who still struggle with the replay of pornographic images in their heads — from many years prior. It has been a negative influence on their marital relationship as well as a recurrent sin, affecting their relationship with Christ. In Christ, Talya
Ephesians 5:1-13
Come on guys, this is a given. We should not even be having this conversation.
If I may say,
Though young/living single, I have been involved in classes for men that taught things such as how to have a godly sex life (from the book entitled “A Married Man’s Guide to having a Great Sex Life”….very informative (to say the least) but insightful and glad for the information as I’m more prepared for what to expect…..and one of the things I was wondering was “Well, I’m 100% AGAINST PORNAGRAPHY and how it distorts what SEXUALITY IS ABOUT or how MEN & WOMEN ARE….. and I don’t wish to be a stumbling block to anyone I come in contact with so I try to guard others from seeing nudity.
However, what about books—even Christian ones—-that have pictures of men/women naked in sexual positions to illustrate certain moves one can make? Or how to do certain things to make one’s sex life enjoyable? Even if they don’t show pictures, what about describing things?
Pornagraphy isn’t just a matter of pictures. Most of the Romance Novels one sees nowadays have enough imagery to incite anyone. Does the same go for Christians?
Hey Pastor Love,
I thought the same thing until I held a couple of conversations about this (not implying which I way I am going) with believers and I would say they were split up the middle on it. Some of these men are Godly individuals trying there best to interpret Hebrews 13 others were Godly men standing up for the holiness of God in which they thought this infringed upon. That is why I am asking the question. If it were a slam dunk I promised I wouldn’t have written it. Can you expound upon the text you provided? I know you are busy, but I am definitely interested in more detailed input. Thanks.
Hey Pastor Gunny what exactly do you mean by:
That’s my general default position, but the pornography one is a bit more problematic for me since the production of the pornographic material is in itself a sinful activity (assuming it’s not the filming of a married couple).
Are you saying that me and my wife can record are love fest (LOL) and broadcast in our couples ministry to help them in that area. Could that be considered discipleship? Sounds funny but some people have said “if they are using for educational purposes then it is okay”.
Hey Pastor Jesse,
Gabriel brought up a good point. Can my wife and I read a Karma Sutra book to help in that area. What about other works of people in different positions to help aide in sexual intimacy? Thanks.
Good question Gabriel. Especially as it relates to novels and tv shows that have people in the act that may or not be married.
Hey Lionel:
You are right I am very busy my Brother, but here is a tidbit.
Consider how sex crazed our culture is and how Biblically illiterate most Christians are. Then grab Calvin, Hendriksen, and Lloyd Jones on Ephesians 5 and I am sure you will see that all the confusion about what is clear in the Scripture does not speak to the necessity of the conversation, but to a real need for 21st century Christians to stop talking about so much mess and simply “Tolle Lege” (the Bible).
Pastor Love
Whenever you have time can you explain what you mean by:
“I am sure you will see that all the confusion about what is clear in the Scripture does not speak to the necessity of the conversation, but to a real need for 21st century Christians to stop talking about so much mess and simply “Tolle Lege” (the Bible)”
I don’t want to take it the wrong way, but is sounds like you are saying “this is not an issue that is up for discussion”. I may be wrong, but that is what is sounds like Sir. If that is the case, I could say the same about the discussion abour paedo-credo, Dispensationalism vs Covenental, Israel vs the Church, Gifts vs Cessasionism, and the like. I believe that any question that any believer brings up as it relates to living the Christian life should get just as much attention.
We wrestle with complex issues, in which I believe this is one. If a young couple comes to my wife and I for counseling, and this comes up, I would want to provide them with the most scriptural answer possible, just as I would any question. Our culture is sex crazed that I agree, but to that, do we just punt questions we think are so obviously clear to us? I don’t think so. Once again, this question came up and as believers who discuss and dialogue about other “mess” that I see on blogs (women preaching, tongues, millennialism, church government, Calvinism, church planting, Emerging movement and the like) what makes this any worse.
Once again I may have missed your point totally Sir; however, this is what is sounds like and if that is the case I respectfully disagree that this isn’t an issue worth discussing.
Thanks for your time.
If I can add some more fuel to the fire,
WhaT IS nudity, and is all forms of nudity wrong? What if I went to the time of the Renaissance and saw works of art that included nakedness or making of the human body? What about doctors that have to examine the naked bodies of individuals? I know that if I saw private parts, then that would be a great stumbling block to me as it relates to purity.
However, my doctor used to have to check male privates ALL THE TIME when he was giving physical exams. Was that a flaw? ANd the same thing with examining/mapping the human body?
Again, what defines nudity and is there only one form of it which is sinful? And what is the biblical definition of pornagraphy and lust? Where does it come from?
I am going to have to moderate that question Gabriel, You said
However, my doctor used to have to check male privates ALL THE TIME when he was giving physical exams. Was that a flaw? ANd the same thing with examining/mapping the human body?
You may be stretching there brother. I will give you the art, but you would have to write out surgery, OBGYN’s, Delivering Children, and the like. So lets stick to the topic, I think you bring up some valid points on the art (though I would call that into question). To say it would be a stumbling block to you, doesn’t mean it would to some who performs medical procedures. Keep it real Brother G!
“If a young couple comes to my wife and I for counseling, and this comes up, I would want to provide them with the most scriptural answer possible, just as I would any question.”
This is precisely my point Lionel. Take a good look at Ephesians 5:11-12 and again read the good brothers I suggested to you and see if this subject requires discussion, debate or simply a scriptural firm stance.
Philippians 4:8
“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.”
No matter what rationalization I think I can find for “private use as a couple”, I can’t fir pornography into any of those descriptors. That is a red flag for me.
Also, there is a difference between Christian based books that talk about Godly sexuality between a husband and wife and porn. A big difference. I will grant that some of the books depict, usually in sketches and not photos, some fairly graphic stuff. But reputable books are still as tasteful as possible, and the material along with the “illustrations” is purely minded and worded and glorifies GodA very good book is Intended for Pleasure”(I forget the author at the moment).
Porn is in its very purpose the depiction of sin, a depiction of erotic twisting of something originally beautiful. There is no comparison. I speak as someone who has been sorely tempted by porn in the past. It destroys.
Additionally, in light of Proverbs 5 there will with porn in the marriage–no matter how innocent the motives–always be a “comparison”. The man will constantly and unavoidably compare himself to the men and his wife to the women. She will do likewise, and unless your both chissled like Greek gods (like me) discontent will inevitably arise. That doesn’t sound like Proverbs 5 to me, or all of song of Solomon for that matter.
In conclusion, I am solidly against porn in the marriage. Period.
That’s my two cents.
Gentleman,
I happen to agree with each of you. Especially with the perspective from Sam. Here is why
1. The Pornography industry sole purpose is to take the intimacy that is to be generated and expressed in sex between Husbands and Wives and to diminish it to an animalistic act that is expressed so widely today in music, culture and movies.
2. Second rather with the husband or the wife or both, stimulation is brought from outside of the marital covenant thus while expressing intimacy with the person in the bed with you, you are vicariously having sex with someone else by psychologically placing that person in bed with you.
3. Typically the wife is the one who is demeaned in the act. Since we know that MOST women do not have nor need the visual stimulation, 9 out of 10 of the man involved in viewing these lewd acts are the ones who really want to see this not for educational purposes but to pursue and fulfill the lust of the eye and flesh.
4. The people involved in the production, manufacturing, and acting in these movies are involved in grave sexual immorality and by purchasing and viewing these acts we are “participating and perpetuating such sinful acts”.
5. Once you open this can of worms it becomes easier to justify viewing such material with or without your spouse. I believe the Armor of God is compromised. Give Satan an centimeter he is going to take 200 miles.
6. We are to flee even the apperance of evil, which I believe is compromised in such vieiwing. I think this is so dangerous brothers and sisters. I would dare to say, if you can’t watch it in the local congregation and if it would be viewed as suspect there, it should be viewed as suspect elsewhere.
7. We are to prepare our hearts and minds for worship. Watching these types of movies stamps the acts on our brains and in our long-term and short-term memory, only to be pulled up in times of temptation and when are hearts are prepared in the local gathering of believers.
8. Finally it helps contribute to the devaluing of human life. We look at people as objects versus being created in the image of God, and in need of the Gospel. If we would challenge people who careers are in pornography, we are being hypocritical by enjoying the very acts we believe that God hates. Thus we have no room to correct their actions if we are enjoying them in the privacy of our bedroom.
A sidenote would be how would you explain to your children if they were watching such material for educational purposes? This is my position anyway and would love to discuss it with those who believe viewing such material is a matter of Christian Material
Pastor Love,
I still disagree that this is a slam dunk issue, just because of the “educational” perspective that can be taken on it. This is why I provided a venue to discuss it. Though we take a strong biblical stance on it, I still think it something that should be discussed. Things such as pre-marital sex, masturbation and the like are things that deserve a clear and hard biblical stance, but what it sound like is that you are saying “give a verse and that is that”. I believe explaining the dangers of such a mentality and showing the psychological and sociological consequences of pornography would be very good supplements to a truth the bible says. I believe to provied an apologetic for what I believe is always important. Once again we do it for the Trinity, Deity of Christ, Justification, Imputation and the Doctrines of Grace, I believe this is something we can discuss amongst brethern also.
Right on Lionel. And nobody called me on the Greek god parenthetical. I guess its cause you all know it’s true….ahem cough cough!!! Sorry That’s hard for even me to swallow!
Hey, I DO lift weights every day. If you call the coffee and sugar “weights”.
Brothers if I may,
First as to this clause:
“. Flee Sexaul Immorality, well you can use it but come with the good stuff. If you use this verse alone, I will have to say, you can’t watch any television where two people are engaging in any type of explicit or implicit sexual activity and you best not listen to a love song that has sexual implications and the person singing and being sung to are not married. So that is about 99% of t.v, movies and music today.”
I know that the reason this was included was in order to steer the discussion in another direction but I want to comment on it anyway. It’s funny to me (because I’ve always heard it) when we say that if we take to hard of a position on (fill in the blank), then we would have to elimimate watching t.v. and most music. But those aren’t such bad things if it frees us up to spend more time with the family and studying the scriptures. I happen to feel that I watch too much t.v. especially on my off days (about 4 hours a day, those days, on average) And even though I really enjoy Marvin Gaye, I actually don’t listen to “Sexual Healing” for the reason you cited. Anyway,
So far as the pornography (and Def Comedy Jam. Comic View, and most other comedy shows, Tupac albums, etc.) I was confronted with this scripture’s specific words. Now you may say that I’m using it out of context and I might agree, but the overall message struck me:
Romans 1:32 (KJV) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.” (emphasis mine)
Here was the question that I have to ask myself all the time: Can I allow myself to be entertained (or instructed) by someone doing something that God hates?
That scripture was my way out doing of many things that I was otherwise justifying.
Let me know what you brothers think.
Wow! Okay… Call me the evil one… but once again I have to go against the grain here. I do not consider porn to be evil at all. Of course, I also would not want my children being featured in such movies either. So, let’s look at why people watch porn. I happen to believe it is for arousal and learning (new techniques) purposes. I myself am married to my High School sweet-heart, and we’ve been together since we were both 15yrs old. I am now 30 which means I have been with her for just about 15 years. We still love each other deeply. However, there exists this hidden evil called human instinct. After years of doing what you only know to do… it can and will get really boring. Most of you will not admit this, but trust me, it’s true. Sex is an adventurous tour in which we all tend to seek a certain level of satisfaction. (Come on, who really does it for aerobics or prostate health) Men, don’t ever THINK you are satisfying your partner, always KNOW that you are satisfying your partner. On that same note… if you are still doing the same things after years of marriage or relationship, then chances are, one or both of you are not really satisfied. This will lead to unpleasant situations. (Note: this is not due to evilness, its just psychology) So, when in need of advice of any kind, most of us tend to seek professionals or professional documentation. In this case it just happens to be pornographic material. Are you guys honestly saying that you will not watch porn with your wives/mates if your intimate sex-life was idle and/or fading? Satisfaction of any kind will always be sought. If you or your partner is not getting satisfaction at home, then you or your partner will seek it else-where. This statement is not just limited to sex either. It’s actually why some of you have abandoned your former church families to join new ones… more satisfying ones. Think about!!!
Also, if anyone of you get aroused by reading the Bible… you need serious help!!!
Hey Talya You said:
“would be problematic in that you are introducing sexual imagery of a third-party into your marital relationship. According to Phil 4:8 we are to think on things on things that are pure, of virtue etc. I believe that would exclude viewing and thinking of sex between other people.
I know married men and women alike who still struggle with the replay of pornographic images in their heads — from many years prior. It has been a negative influence on their marital relationship as well as a recurrent sin, affecting their relationship with Christ. In Christ, Talya”
I fall into this category, after being exposed and engulfed with pornography from about the age of 8-9 and even bringing into my bedroom for “educational purposes” I found myself never satisfied because of acts my wife wouldn’t do. I have been clean for about 4.5 years but every so often images pop back in my head from things I watched when I was eleven or twelve.
Chuck you said:
“After years of doing what you only know to do… it can and will get really boring. Most of you will not admit this, but trust me, it’s true. Sex is an adventurous tour in which we all tend to seek a certain level of satisfaction. (Come on, who really does it for aerobics or prostate health) Men, don’t ever THINK you are satisfying your partner, always KNOW that you are satisfying your partner. On that same note… if you are still doing the same things after years of marriage or relationship, then chances are, one or both of you are not really satisfied. This will lead to unpleasant situations. (Note: this is not due to evilness, its just psychology) So, when in need of advice of any kind, most of us tend to seek professionals or professional documentation. In this case it just happens to be pornographic material.”
I will keep this as “politically correct as possible”.
1. The most pleasurable time for me has been face to face with my wife embracing her and having her look into my eyes (hope I don’t get removed from the blogsphere for that statement).
2. The human mind is freaky enough to think up things. The same people who came up with the other “ways” are just as human and there are things I thought of apart from assistance, some worked some didn’t (strike two for Lionel)!
3. Now for a question. When your children are preparing to get married or to engage in sex before marriage, why don’t you just invite them into your bedroom with the other person to watch you and your wife? You have been with your wife for 15 years I know you guys should have some good tricks in your bag right?
Next you said:
“Are you guys honestly saying that you will not watch porn with your wives/mates if your intimate sex-life was idle and/or fading? Satisfaction of any kind will always be sought. If you or your partner is not getting satisfaction at home, then you or your partner will seek it else-where. This statement is not just limited to sex either. It’s actually why some of you have abandoned your former church families to join new ones… more satisfying ones. Think about!!! ”
I thought about it and my answer is naaaaahhhhhh! We will pray and seek Godly counsel not a porn that takes the essential ingredient in sexual intimacy “INTIMACY”! If your wife (we don’t use the word partner here for obvious reasons) or husband is not being satisfied I suggest you communicate with them just like you would your dentist if he hit a nerve or your doctor if the medicine he prescribed didn’t aleviate the problem. Communication is the key. I ask my wife to be honest with me and my sole purpose is to ensure that I am not selfish in the bedroom. I want to ensure she is satisfied and that what we both came to experience was accomplished. And I will do WHATEVER it takes (within bounds of things that I am comfortable with and things I don’t think will compromise walking in the Spirit) to ensure that she is FULLY SATISFIED (this may be strike three).
So that is my take on your response Charles, anyone else?
Lionel,
Good day brother.
I tried not to jump into this discussion, but alas I had to:)
I am on the side of Pastor Love here. I am not saying this is something that should not be discussed, and I don’t think he was either. I don’t believe he was saying simply throw out scripture when questions like this come up and leave it at that. I can not speak for him, but I don’t believe that is what he is saying.
My problem is with the spirit of this post. I completely agree with your response #15, but I would have liked that to be the actual post. Let everyone know that this is a problem, you have been getting questions about it, and as you said you actually struggled with this and now by the grace of God are overcoming this issue. That would have been an excellent post.
I do understand the nature of blogs is to start discussions, and that’s cool, but I think this subject needed to be addressed from a different angle. Not by asking if it is okay for couples to partake of this, but by taking a strong biblical stance from jump and letting people know the Bible does not condone this behavior.
But alas this is your blog, you can start topics anyway you like…I still had to toss my two cents in.
Your brother in Christ,
Louie
I see what you are saying LC,
I am saying this is my position but it is a question for disucssion. As I stated there are Godly couples and leaders who would disagree with me on this. I wanted to give them a chance to come on and work out the issue even in anonymity if possible. So I wanted a different perspective on it before I posted mine.
Thank you and Pastor Love for your words of wisdom and I will take this into careful consideration when I post again. Thank you for your gracious approach.
Lionel,
And thank you for continuing to be gracious as well.
Brother Lionel (and I apologize ahead of time if it comes off like a rant, lol)
You said:
I will keep this as “politically correct as possible”.
“1. The most pleasurable time for me has been face to face with my wife embracing her and having her look into my eyes (hope I don’t get removed from the blogsphere for that statement)”
Please do NOT APOLOGIZE for simply keeping it REAL (there’s already enough skirtting around the issue as if it’s taboo when Song OF Solomon was just as explicit—
Song of Solomon 2:3
[ Beloved ] Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my lover among the young men. I delight to sit in his shade, and his fruit is sweet to my taste.
Song of Solomon 4:16
[ Beloved ] Awake, north wind, and come, south wind! Blow on my garden, that its fragrance may spread abroad. Let my lover come into his garden and taste its choice fruits.
Song of Solomon 4:11
Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride; milk and honey are under your tongue. The fragrance of your garments is like that of Lebanon.
Song of Solomon 7:7-9
7 Your stature is like that of the palm,
and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree;
I will take hold of its fruit.”
May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine,
the fragrance of your breath like apples,
9 and your mouth like the best wine.
Beloved
May the wine go straight to my lover,
flowing gently over lips and teeth. [a]
Compared to Solomon, Brah, I say the strikes haven’t occured yet…
”
Let’s add on some more:
Proverbs 5:18-20
18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.
20 Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress?
Why embrace the bosom of another man’s wife?
Eph 5:31-32 (NIV) “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church.
God uses a strong human urge, sex, to describe His relationship with us. Israel is “the Wife” of Jehovah. We, the church, are called “the Bride” of Christ. Most Christians understand that Scripture uses sexual desire to represent the longing and excitement God feels for us, and we should feel for Him, as well as to describe how we “whore” after false religions, worldly “wisdom”, and the idols of this world……
James 4:4-5 (Phi) You are like unfaithful wives… never realizing that to be the world’s lover means becoming the enemy of God! Anyone who deliberately chooses to be the world’s friend is thereby making himself God’s enemy. Or do you think what the Scriptures have to say about this is a mere formality?
God Do we recognize how intense the desire is within us to chase after the latest religious fad, to believe comforting lies, to embrace the world? Scripture uses sexual imagery to show how strong our passions are for things like chasing after the latest religious fad, believing comforting lies, and embracing the world. And it uses sexual imagery to show how God is a jealous God; we are His; and He takes a dim view of our “arousal” to fellowship with lies, sophistries, and the world.
Ezekiel 16:30 (NIV) “How weak-willed you are, declares the Sovereign Lord, when you do all these things, acting like a brazen prostitute!”
When adultery and prostitution are applied to Israel, Babylon, etc., clearly it is the symbolic / spiritual sense. But because the images are so shocking and descriptive, it may take some effort not to miss the point by getting caught up in the “lurid” aspect of these texts
Jeremiah 2:20 (NIV) “Long ago you broke off your yoke and tore off your bonds; you said, ‘I will not serve you!’ Indeed, on every high hill and under every spreading tree you lay down as a prostitute.”
Ezekiel 23:17-20 “Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.”
Here’s some verses/food for thought:
Jeremiah 3:1-10
Jeremiah 5:1-6
Jeremiah 5:7-13
Jeremiah 7:8-11
Jeremiah 9:2-3…
Jeremiah 13:22-27
Ezekiel 23
Ezekiel
Hosea 1:2
Hosea 3:1-3
Hosea 7:11-13
Hosea 4:10-12
Hosea 7:4,
Hosea 6-7
Hosea 2:2-3,
Hosea 5-7
Hosea 2:8-10
Hosea 13
Hosea 2:14-17
Hosea 19-20
Hosea 23
If Scripture uses the strongest, most graphic language to warn us not to “play the harlot” or to illustrate the dynamics of our relationship with Him, then what’s the problem?//
To Brother Chuck,
If I may say, sir, I’d like to refer you to some of the links that I’ve studied on the points you brought up which may be of benefit:
http://www.covenanteyes.com/
http://www.growthtrac.com/
http://www.pureintimacy.org/
http://www.purelifeministries.org/
http://www.boundless.org/sex/
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001102.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001218.cfm
Also, if interested, you can consider going here for more investigation (from the Ministry of Joshua Harris):
http://www.covlife.org/sermons/archives/
02.11.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 6
Listen Online Download (7.4 MB)
02.04.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 5
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.28.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 4
Listen Online Download (10.8 MB)
01.21.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 3
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.14.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 2
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.07.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 1
Listen Online Download (10.7 MB)
would you submit pornography to children in order to teach them that it’s wrong? Or expose them to a Brothel in order to REALISTICALLY show them its dangers? Of course not…..but that’s the FULL LOGICAL extent of the reasoning at Free Chapel… The issue isn’t avoidance of any REAL portrayal of sin or social issues—the Bible is full of stories about the sinfulness of humanity. But there is a right and wrong way for sin to be portrayed.
As Joshua Harris said in “Not Even a Hint”, “A portrayal of sin should never prompt the reader/viewer only to want more of the same. Today many images of sin that should produce REPULSION instead produce attraction.” There’s a BIG difference between reading in Scripture about David’s adulterous affair with Bathsheba, which is condemned as wickedness, and watching an adulterous affair or lewd content in a film that’s celebrated, making it appear GOOD.
Likewise, when the media’s promoting an evil message (i.e. presenting sin in a attractive way, and celebrating sins like lying, stealing, murder, sexual immorality etc), or using an evil method to make a point (ex. Jakes “Woman Thou Art Loosed”, where the story makes the point of sexual abuse being bad while having the performers behave shamelessly, n’ making viewers wallow through HEAVY graphic sexuality/temptation), then it’s WORLDLY….
And avoidance is QUITE necessary…..that’s essentially what PORNAGRAPHY’s about.
What’s seen in PORNAGRAPHY is NOT WHAT SEX TRULY IS. People often forget that’s HOLLYWOOD AND THEY’RE ACTORS. They were paid to act as if they could have 1000 ORGASMS per second…..but that’s not what real sexuality is like. Nor is it in the sense of men dominating women
For some excellent resources on the issue, consider these:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001258.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001277.cfm
Brother Lionel (and I apologize ahead of time if it comes off like a rant, lol)
You said:
I will keep this as “politically correct as possible”.
“1. The most pleasurable time for me has been face to face with my wife embracing her and having her look into my eyes (hope I don’t get removed from the blogsphere for that statement)”
Please do NOT APOLOGIZE for simply keeping it REAL (there’s already enough skirtting around the issue as if it’s taboo when Song OF Solomon was just as explicit—
Song of Solomon 2:3
[ Beloved ] Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my lover among the young men. I delight to sit in his shade, and his fruit is sweet to my taste.
Song of Solomon 4:16
[ Beloved ] Awake, north wind, and come, south wind! Blow on my garden, that its fragrance may spread abroad. Let my lover come into his garden and taste its choice fruits.
Song of Solomon 4:11
Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride; milk and honey are under your tongue. The fragrance of your garments is like that of Lebanon.
Song of Solomon 7:7-9
7 Your stature is like that of the palm,
and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree;
I will take hold of its fruit.”
May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine,
the fragrance of your breath like apples,
9 and your mouth like the best wine.
Beloved
May the wine go straight to my lover,
flowing gently over lips and teeth. [a]
Compared to Solomon, Brah, I say the strikes haven’t occured yet…
”
Let’s add on some more:
Proverbs 5:18-20
18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.
20 Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress?
Why embrace the bosom of another man’s wife?
Eph 5:31-32 (NIV) “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church.
God uses a strong human urge, sex, to describe His relationship with us. Israel is “the Wife” of Jehovah. We, the church, are called “the Bride” of Christ. Most Christians understand that Scripture uses sexual desire to represent the longing and excitement God feels for us, and we should feel for Him, as well as to describe how we “whore” after false religions, worldly “wisdom”, and the idols of this world……
James 4:4-5 (Phi) You are like unfaithful wives… never realizing that to be the world’s lover means becoming the enemy of God! Anyone who deliberately chooses to be the world’s friend is thereby making himself God’s enemy. Or do you think what the Scriptures have to say about this is a mere formality?
God Do we recognize how intense the desire is within us to chase after the latest religious fad, to believe comforting lies, to embrace the world? Scripture uses sexual imagery to show how strong our passions are for things like chasing after the latest religious fad, believing comforting lies, and embracing the world. And it uses sexual imagery to show how God is a jealous God; we are His; and He takes a dim view of our “arousal” to fellowship with lies, sophistries, and the world.
Ezekiel 16:30 (NIV) “How weak-willed you are, declares the Sovereign Lord, when you do all these things, acting like a brazen prostitute!”
When adultery and prostitution are applied to Israel, Babylon, etc., clearly it is the symbolic / spiritual sense. But because the images are so shocking and descriptive, it may take some effort not to miss the point by getting caught up in the “lurid” aspect of these texts
Jeremiah 2:20 (NIV) “Long ago you broke off your yoke and tore off your bonds; you said, ‘I will not serve you!’ Indeed, on every high hill and under every spreading tree you lay down as a prostitute.”
Ezekiel 23:17-20 “Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.”
Here’s some verses/food for thought:
Jeremiah 3:1-10
Jeremiah 5:1-6
Jeremiah 5:7-13
Jeremiah 7:8-11
Jeremiah 9:2-3…
Jeremiah 13:22-27
Ezekiel 23
Ezekiel
Hosea 1:2
Hosea 3:1-3
Hosea 7:11-13
Hosea 4:10-12
Hosea 7:4,
Hosea 6-7
Hosea 2:2-3,
Hosea 5-7
Hosea 2:8-10
Hosea 13
Hosea 2:14-17
Hosea 19-20
Hosea 23
If Scripture uses the strongest, most graphic language to warn us not to “play the harlot” or to illustrate the dynamics of our relationship with Him, then what’s the problem?//
To Brother Chuck,
If I may say, sir, I’d like to refer you to some of the links that I’ve studied on the points you brought up which may be of benefit:
http://www.covenanteyes.com/
http://www.growthtrac.com/
http://www.pureintimacy.org/
http://www.purelifeministries.org/
http://www.boundless.org/sex/
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001102.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001218.cfm
Also, if interested, you can consider going here for more investigation (from the Ministry of Joshua Harris):
http://www.covlife.org/sermons/archives/
02.11.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 6
Listen Online Download (7.4 MB)
02.04.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 5
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.28.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 4
Listen Online Download (10.8 MB)
01.21.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 3
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.14.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 2
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.07.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 1
Listen Online Download (10.7 MB)
would you submit pornography to children in order to teach them that it’s wrong? Or expose them to a Brothel in order to REALISTICALLY show them its dangers? Of course not…..but that’s the FULL LOGICAL extent of the reasoning at Free Chapel… The issue isn’t avoidance of any REAL portrayal of sin or social issues—the Bible is full of stories about the sinfulness of humanity. But there is a right and wrong way for sin to be portrayed.
As Joshua Harris said in “Not Even a Hint”, “A portrayal of sin should never prompt the reader/viewer only to want more of the same. Today many images of sin that should produce REPULSION instead produce attraction.” There’s a BIG difference between reading in Scripture about David’s adulterous affair with Bathsheba, which is condemned as wickedness, and watching an adulterous affair or lewd content in a film that’s celebrated, making it appear GOOD.
Likewise, when the media’s promoting an evil message (i.e. presenting sin in a attractive way, and celebrating sins like lying, stealing, murder, sexual immorality etc), or using an evil method to make a point (ex. Jakes “Woman Thou Art Loosed”, where the story makes the point of sexual abuse being bad while having the performers behave shamelessly, n’ making viewers wallow through HEAVY graphic sexuality/temptation), then it’s WORLDLY….
And avoidance is QUITE necessary…..that’s essentially what PORNAGRAPHY’s about.
What’s seen in PORNAGRAPHY is NOT WHAT SEX TRULY IS. People often forget that’s HOLLYWOOD AND THEY’RE ACTORS. They were paid to act as if they could have 1000 ORGASMS per second…..but that’s not what real sexuality is like. Nor is it in the sense of men dominating women
For some excellent resources on the issue, consider these:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001258.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001277.cfm
If I may say, sir, I’d like to refer you to some of the links that I’ve studied on the points you brought up which may be of benefit:
http://www.covenanteyes.com/
http://www.growthtrac.com/
http://www.pureintimacy.org/
http://www.purelifeministries.org/
http://www.boundless.org/sex/
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001102.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001218.cfm
Also, if interested, you can consider going here for more investigation (from the Ministry of Joshua Harris):
http://www.covlife.org/sermons/archives/
02.11.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 6
Listen Online Download (7.4 MB)
02.04.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 5
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.28.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 4
Listen Online Download (10.8 MB)
01.21.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 3
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.14.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 2
Listen Online Download (11 MB)
01.07.2007 Joshua Harris Purity – Part 1
Listen Online Download (10.7 MB)
would you submit pornography to children in order to teach them that it’s wrong? Or expose them to a Brothel in order to REALISTICALLY show them its dangers? Of course not…..but that’s the FULL LOGICAL extent of the reasoning at Free Chapel… The issue isn’t avoidance of any REAL portrayal of sin or social issues—the Bible is full of stories about the sinfulness of humanity. But there is a right and wrong way for sin to be portrayed.
As Joshua Harris said in “Not Even a Hint”, “A portrayal of sin should never prompt the reader/viewer only to want more of the same. Today many images of sin that should produce REPULSION instead produce attraction.” There’s a BIG difference between reading in Scripture about David’s adulterous affair with Bathsheba, which is condemned as wickedness, and watching an adulterous affair or lewd content in a film that’s celebrated, making it appear GOOD.
Likewise, when the media’s promoting an evil message (i.e. presenting sin in a attractive way, and celebrating sins like lying, stealing, murder, sexual immorality etc), or using an evil method to make a point (ex. Jakes “Woman Thou Art Loosed”, where the story makes the point of sexual abuse being bad while having the performers behave shamelessly, n’ making viewers wallow through HEAVY graphic sexuality/temptation), then it’s WORLDLY….
And avoidance is QUITE necessary…..that’s essentially what PORNAGRAPHY’s about.
What’s seen in PORNAGRAPHY is NOT WHAT SEX TRULY IS. People often forget that’s HOLLYWOOD AND THEY’RE ACTORS. They were paid to act as if they could have 1000 ORGASMS per second…..but that’s not what real sexuality is like. Nor is it in the sense of men dominating women
For some excellent resources on the issue, consider these:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001258.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001277.cfm
If I may say, sir, I’d like to refer you to some of the links that I’ve studied on the points you brought up which may be of benefit:
http://www.covenanteyes.com/
http://www.growthtrac.com/
http://www.pureintimacy.org/
http://www.purelifeministries.org/
http://www.boundless.org/sex/
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001102.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001218.cfm
By the way, Has anyone heard of this?
In my mind, may tie into the conversation….if people are battling on how to increase their love lifes, pornagraphy isn’t the answer. Many times, it may simply be a matter of couples not taking enough time to “know each other” as Adam did with Eve when he was intimate (since the reality of the matter is that SEX IS ABOUT KNOWING YOUR SPOUSE—not imitating the moves of someone else, but finding out one-on-one what your spouse likes……and when done privately, it can be even more fun since it’s ORIGINAL_
Nothing wrong, IMHO, with eroticism. Sensuality –that this is how G-d designed us..neither do I feel it is NOT a SIN to ABUSE it….
Song of Solomon IS about romance and sexual passion in marriage
For anyone interested, I encourage everyone to consider checking out this thread on the issue since it deals with the very subject of CHRISTIAN THOUGHTS ON PORNAGRAPHY (though of course, one will have to register….which is cool since all you really need is a CODE-NAME and it’s all free)
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=67713
EVen for those Christians who are PRO-PORN, consider something:
Do yo u have any siblings? Children? And if so, do you love them? Moreover, would you’d be cool if someone did something sexually with them? As crazy/off base as it sounds, That ties directly into THE POST……for what people often forget is that the individuals involved in pornagraphy were once little ones—innocent—–& now they’re portrayed as pieces of meat, sex tools—-with the girls being there simply for pleasure/dehumanized into anything but beautiful ladies who deserve to have husbands privelaged to see their nakedness alone (just as you’d wish to be the only one able to see your wife naked)— & the guys lowered to the level of simply being beastial/animals bent on pleasure.
__________________
http://www.protectkids.com/effects/
From Pure Life Ministries:
http://www.purelifeministries.org/index.cfm?pageid=163&articleid=137
Solomon intimately understood how powerful sexual temptation can be for a young man. It was with him in mind that he wrote the fifth chapter of Proverbs. “My son, give attention to my wisdom, incline your ear to my understanding… For the lips of an adulteress drip honey and smoother than oil is her speech.” (Proverbs 5:1-3)
Those two sentences perfectly describe both the power of sexual temptation and its antidote. The wise king understood that, if a young man is to successfully withstand the charms of the temptress, he must be prepared ahead of time. Time spent in the Word everyday builds up a man’s immune system against the poison of pornography. The scriptures are simply the thinking and perspectives of the Lord. As a man continually immerses himself in the Bible, he will gradually take on God’s mindset toward life, people and, yes, even sexuality. A man who devotes daily time to the Word is given spiritual insight into the power of temptation and how it works.
Notice again what Solomon says about sexual sin. He personifies it as an adulteress whose lips of honey represent promised fulfillment. The temptation seems irresistible because it is laced with deception—namely, that the act of sin will bring about tremendous pleasure and satisfaction. The tantalizing thought is presented and all thoughts of resistance are forgotten. The act of sexual sin looks absolutely intoxicating and therefore irresistible. The smooth oil represents the craftiness of the enemy… Fully camouflaged and extremely calculating, he presents the perfect illusion, timing each consecutive attack “to steal, and kill, and destroy’ God’s property.”
The wise man, whose heart has been fortified with the Word of God, sees the devil behind that intoxicating temptation. In the Garden, Satan exposed himself as the “crafty” serpent he is. I imagine him being very much like a cobra. Known for the hideous hood it extends when preparing to attack, it actually spits into the eyes of its victim before striking. With its target blinded and helpless, the serpent could easily squirm away into the brush. But this viper is not content with escape; it enjoys killing. With bared fangs, it lunges, injecting its deadly poison into its victim’s body.
This is a fitting picture of the man lured into viewing pornography. The temptation usually begins when he comes across a glimpse of flesh and/or a sexually suggestive hyper-link. It is just enough venom to temporarily blind him to the impending danger. The initial presentation is stimulating, creating a sensual atmosphere which spiritually incapacitates him.
Good discussion! The question I have is why would I want to view pornography with my wife in the first place? This just isn’t a temptation with me. If I have my honey with me in the name of Christ, why would I feel a need for something more?
As far as what we do together, what do I need with something like the Karma Sutra if I have Song of Solomon? Whew! That’s one steamy piece of scripture. I’m reading the Bible through with the kids and I might have to skip that part until they get older. It does give me an idea of the next Bible Study I can do with my wife.
As far as what’s allowed in the marriage bed, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. I’m there for her and she’s there for me. Within the context of our status as children of God, aside from salvation and worship it doesn’t get any better than that.
Thanks Brother Jim, your words are always encouraging, enganging and always demands a response. Especially your profitability statement. It really doesn’t get any better!
To watch pornography would be inviting lust toward the images on screen. More important is the understanding of scripture. The marriage bed is undefiles indeed. However, this is not a license to do anything. We are created by God with natural tools to fulfill the natural desire. We are privileged to share the marriage bed with our spouse. Too often people use the marriage bed undefiled verse to overcome the conviction God gives us for desiring unhealthy methods of physical pleasure even if it is with our spouse. If we are to experience real intimacy and the spiritual realm of the marriage bed we are benefited by remembering the created tools and original meaning of the marriage bed. Certainly it was not for fulfilling our sinful lust at any cost. My personal belief concerning the pornography is derived from my belief that the woman or man on the screen is not my spouse nor will they ever be my spouse therefore I would be lusting after another mans wife. It doesn’t matter if she is married or single. She is not my wife. This is also the advice I give young people concerning dating. Every person you date will someday be someones wife or husband. Consider that going into every date.
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this matter openly.
Just had to say that this is one of the most intriguing threads I’ve ever heard of.
So intriguing, in fact, that I figured I’d jumpstart some things.
The other night, someone I know and his accountability partner were discussing the issue of Pornographic material ( pictures, video, ect ) of one’s spouse.
Basically, Home Made Pornography…
He was saying that he thought that this fell into the issue of Lust, which one can not do after a spouse as they are one. They would be an interesting topic of discussion, for even though he has the real thing, he could easily think of times when the real thing isn’t available… ect… For example… Work related Trips….
Thoughts?
Personally, I don’t think that there is any problem with lots of sex, all kinds, within marriage, as it creates oneness. Moreover, I think that if there is going to be a lack thereof, rather then turn to sin, we should look to our spouse, after all, Paul Gives “burning with Lustful Desire” as a reason to get married. Also, I don’t think that it detracts from oneness in the way something like Pornography would (as is typical in the porn industry with “barbaric sex” or “first date sex”).
My wife and i were thinking about anl sex, She is a Christian and is not sure if this conflicts with her beliefs. I have told her that if she does not want to try this we do not have to. She replied it is ” it is not that I dont want to, I just have to make sure that it is not a sin.” Something like this however I am sure she does not want to bring up to the local Pastor can you give us some advise?
Hey Jacob,
Thanks for asking brother and allowing me to answer. I will also email you this answer. There is absolutely nothing in scripture preventing anal sex between married couples. It is a matter of conscience. Sodomy refers to moral depravity and homosexuality but is never ever used in the description between a husband and a wife. So let me say this very candidly:
1. You can perform sex in any position you guys feel is reasonable.
2. Couples are free to use anything in the bed (sex toys, food, mouth, hands kitchen utensils and the like) there is nothing in the scripture that prevents you from expressing yourself in anyway you feel reasonable.
3. The only thing that I know would be prevented is the use of other people. I personally include pornography but there are some Christians who make a case for this and I can’t say no 100% (that is why I posted this) but as a Christian I think this would do harm and not good, once again this may be an issue of liberty but I believe it to be extremely dangerous.
4. The last thing to keep in mind is mutuality. If you or your spouse are uncofortamble with this then it is something to discuss and then come to a consensus that being a desire to serve one another sexually. I belive the husband is to take the loss in this situation. If the wife is uncomfortable with something (this is what I have seen in my experience) then respect her boundaries and pray that God would change her heart but never try to coerce her or make her feel uncomfortable in any way. This would be out of line with Philippians 2 and the mind of Christ. We are to look out for the interst of others and we should die trying to serve one another the most.
With that said if your wife is game tell her she has liberty, but you ensure that you are loving patient and understanding. God tells us to “live with our wives as the weaker vessel” this isn’t weak in strength but delicate. She is like a precious Mona Lisa and we should handle them with great care and gentleness even in the bedroom.
Hope this helps. BTW you said “my wife is a Christian” what about you friend?
Brother Jacob,
Also please brother, check into the medical ramifications. It can be quite injurious to your wife physically in the long run. You may have to search thoroughly as this information has been shunned in the medical field in order to be PC to the gay community. Just a thought.
Hi Friends,
This is Pastor Richard Muwanguzi from Iganga – Uganda, Pastoring miracle center church.
I would like to have relationship with you so that your ministry may be a blessing to our church and the people of Uganda.
Hoping to hear from you soon.
Yours faithfully
Pastor Richard Muwanguzi.
Dear Sirs,
I was going through some information regrading what you say about your profets (Noah,…). As muslims we believe that they are sinless – that is they do not committ sins like we do. For example, just think of it – is it possible as a profet to do bad things like drinking and so on. That is not possible, since GOD send us the profets like Jesus, Abraham, NOah, Moisis, Mohammad, and others for preaching people so that they leave bad habits and praise GOD (Lord) so that they turned to be on the right path. Otherwise, if profets turned to be like human beings, nobody would have followed before since for you or myself to change or to improve we need to follow somebody whi can be an idle and not one of us. So, Beleive all prophets were sinless, and they cannot do bad things.
Think again in deep and judge.
Regards,
Your brother Zein (Muslim).
PORN SHOULD DIEEEEEEEEEE